Ford Sierra engine & gearbox

[heksu]

Hi and good morning from Finland,

I have spitfire 1500, 1977.

It is with 1200 motor. So I have been thing to update the motor some day, as it is not so easy to get Triumph motor here in Finland I have been looking for other alternatives. I have found out that Ford P9 gearbox has been use and there is propshaft available for reasonable price http://www.canleyclassics.com/gearbox-and-clutch/ford-type-9-5-speed-conversion-parts/

What about 1,6 l  Ford engine from old Sierra, has someone installed one, is there enought room for the engine without big modifications ( what about steering rack), I know that supports must be changed. I would like to keep the outlook of the car as it is. Sierra 1,6 cost here 300-1000€..

Thing is that according to local law, if I install bigger motor than 1,6l, I need to modify the brakes, this is not so simple.

[John Bonnett]

Hello and welcome to the forum. You are definitely in the right place if you are considering modifying your Triumph. I can understand your reasons for thinking about fitting a Pinto engine but it may not be the best option. The engine itself is high compared with a crossflow and it is also heavier. But a crossflow may not be easiy to come by now. So, personally I would look seriously at going for a 1600 Zetec with a Type 9 gearbox. A number of our people have taken this route and there is plenty of information available on what is involved. Chris Sherrington has produced an instruction sheet on how to make engine mounts and the great thing about it is that the body and chassis require no modification. The engine is modern and lightweight and easily available.

There are many others here who are far more knowledgeable than I am and I'm sure they will be pleased to offer you help and advice.

rgds

John

[heksu]

Hi John,

thank you for the replay. I can have only 20% more power than in 1500 spitfire engine. So 69 hv + 20% = app. 83 hv without brake modifications. It's not so easy here, I think that the 1600 Zetec has 105 hv, there is also 1400 zetec.. I need to look on this with more time. I don't know if it is acceptable to go to injection system..

[Clive]

First thing is to find out what is allowed 🙂
Uprating brakes is not too hard if you can import some things, or better still can get parts machined/altered.
you can use ford capri vented discs, just need to redrill the attaching bolt holes, I did this at home. Then you can buy "princess 4 pot callipers" or import modern copies.
Another is use M16 callipers off a ford, and then get a GT6 disc machined down a little so the callipers will fit.


I have a 1800 Zetec in my car, effectively from a late ford escort. Needs a few modifications to fit, and your rules may affect all that. Plus the standard injection is hard to use (maybe impossible in a spitfire, have seen it done in a herald)

The small focus engine may be OK, but no idea about the standard fuel injection. Here most people fit aftermarket injection, or 4 carburettors off a motorbike.

[BiTurbo228]

What specifically would need upgrading in the brake department? Would a set of Mintex pads do the trick? I hear the stock setup with a set of those is actually rather good.

[Nick Jones]

Suzuki SJ gearbox which can be used with the various 1300 cc engines from the SJ, Swift and so on.  Also I think the 1600 version.

Or 1600 MX5 engine/box on SU carbs with suitable power downward estimate......

The 1600 Pinto is very tall and very heavy with poor power output and high fuel consumption.  There were some Sierras fitted with the 1.8 CVH engine but most of the same comments apply.

Dependent on how flexible your certifiers are, you could argue that the Spitfire is alot like a GT6 which has about 100 bhp - and GT6 brakes are a bolt-on swap....

Nick

[Martins Stag]

The  1500 spitfire has  71 BHP in the UK was it different in the rest of Europe? So plus 20% = 85.2 bhp? But its not all about the power its torque too

Hope this helps?

Martin

P.s. I still think a straight 6 is better that a Zetec

[John Bonnett]

Quoted from Martins Spitfire

The  1500 spitfire has  71 BHP in the UK was it different in the rest of Europe? So plus 20% = 85.2 bhp? But its not all about the power its torque too

Hope this helps?

Martin

P.s. I still think a straight 6 is better that a Zetec

Apart from the sound, in what respect?

[heksu]

The finish regulations are if I have understood correctly.

Acceptable without brake or suspension change
1) 25% more engine volume
2) 20% more power
3) torque, no demands
4) turbo yes if it's in power limits
5) fuel injection yes if originaly in the installed motor
6) weight of the motor no limits
7) exhaust limits, no..


MX5 motor is not easy to get and those are expensive. I think Pinto 1,6 motor is same as 2,0 => heavy.

1300 Kent motors has been installed here..

The brake modification can be difficult as there are no real rules, just to be improve?? What ever it means, I'm not interested to start with authorities about this.

[heksu]

Quoted from Martins Spitfire

The  1500 spitfire has  71 BHP in the UK was it different in the rest of Europe? So plus 20% = 85.2 bhp? But its not all about the power its torque too

Hope this helps?

Martin

P.s. I still think a straight 6 is better that a Zetec

Yes I think that all european 1500 were with 71 BHP, US models are lower. Mine is originaly from Germany.

[Clive]

Quoted from John Bonnett

Apart from the sound, in what respect?

Some people are unenlightened 🙂

[Nick Jones]

Quoted from John Bonnett

Apart from the sound, in what respect?

Well, the sound is a big part of it for me.  A good one pulls from 800rpm 'til you get scared and is smooth all the way through.  They are pretty tough and long lasting in 2.0L form too.

TBH, but for the noise I'd quite likely have a Zetec SE fitted by now....... and Clive already has a  Zetec!

Nick

[RedRooster]

Quoted from John Bonnett

Apart from the sound, in what respect?

The sound is most of it a cammed up straight six on triples is a wonderful thing when its happy....
RR

[Martins Stag]

So if you want a car that sounds like a Ford Focus then a Zetec is your engine. Don't forget  to take torque into account too?


Martin

(Starting to miss my 2,5 Spit!)

[heksu]

Quoted from Martins Spitfire

So if you want a car that sounds like a Ford Focus then a Zetec is your engine. Don't forget  to take torque into account too?


Martin

(Starting to miss my 2,5 Spit!)

Martin,
what I read from our regulations there is nothing about torque, this is good point and I need to check this.

http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-RL1522SS

I have something like this, so the sound is enought.

[heksu]

Quoted from cliftyhanger

First thing is to find out what is allowed 🙂
Another is use M16 callipers off a ford, and then get a GT6 disc machined down a little so the callipers will fit.

The M16 calipers seems to be easy to get from UK as well as GT6 disc's. So those are as "bolt on" with exeption for disc machine and possible brake pipe?

I have lathe so it is not a problem to make the disc smaller. BTW... they ask 137€ for set of M16 disc pads here in Finalnd.

This 1,4 motor might have problem as we hade RHD.. and the exhaust in on that side of the motor where we have steeding colum. I will go discuss with the local authories 😀 🙁   what is requested if I install a 1,6 zetec, this motor seems to be better available also.

[heksu]

Quoted from John Bonnett

Chris Sherrington has produced an instruction sheet on how to make engine mounts and the great thing about it is that the body and chassis require no modification.

I cant find these instructions..

[ferny]

For such a small power increase, why not stay with the original engine and get it worked on? You'll easily get more power than you're allowed with the added bonus of no-one behind able to tell from opening the bonnet.

[heksu]

The car is with 1,2 l motor, there is not much power in it. The motor need rebuilding as well.

[Clive]

Quoted from heksu

The M16 calipers seems to be easy to get from UK as well as GT6 disc's. So those are as "bolt on" with exeption for disc machine and possible brake pipe?

I have lathe so it is not a problem to make the disc smaller. BTW... they ask 137€ for set of M16 disc pads here in Finalnd.

This 1,4 motor might have problem as we hade RHD.. and the exhaust in on that side of the motor where we have steeding colum. I will go discuss with the local authories 😀 🙁   what is requested if I install a 1,6 zetec, this motor seems to be better available also.

The triumph type 16 callipers will not just fit, you need the Ford version used on old escorts , Capri and corttina.
That is a shocking price for standard pads. About 15-20euro over here. Do you have to pay import duty?
The brake conversion was mentioned by Dave Pearson a while ago. Do a search...

[heksu]

Quoted from cliftyhanger

The triumph type 16 callipers will not just fit, you need the Ford version used on old escorts , Capri and corttina.
That is a shocking price for standard pads. About 15-20euro over here. Do you have to pay import duty?
The brake conversion was mentioned by Dave Pearson a while ago. Do a search...

Yes I know that it must be Ford M16; like these  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford.....7:g:nOYAAOSwu1VW4AxE

As long as UK stays in EU we dont pay any tax..

[Jonny-Jimbo]

If it's a Spitfire, rather than putting on a combination of Ford parts etc, why not just upgrade the front corners (vertical link, hub, spindle, caliper carrier, caliper, disc and pad) to GT6 spec? You get your upgrade on the standard parts, and they are bolt on?

All you'd need to do is undo the top two ball joint bolts, the bottom trunnion bolt and swap in and change the caliper...

[heksu]

To go easiest way? If I change the engine to Ford does it really matter if the brake calibers are from Ford, the official inspection office here is extremely difficult so maybe they request the GT6 parts. I will find out.

[heksu]

I went today to ask from local car inspector what to with the brakes if motor power is more than 20% of original. Yeah..he open his computer check the data base..Triumph Spitfire 1977, maximum motor size in our system is 1300.. I told no the last models where all 1500. No he said this is what I have.

Then I ask..what about if motor power is over 20%..he said: You fill in this document with modifications you are going to do, send it to some state company. You pay 385€ then you get answer, the answer can just be no with out any explanations. They either accept or reject my plan.

I live in post sovjet union..this is really

[Gt6s]

Quoted from heksu

or install a 1,6 motor and tell it is 1,4.

I saw a trike some years ago all built from an Alfa Romeo, V6 engine, auto box, rear end and rear suspension. We looked at the tax disc and saw it was tax exempt, The Alfa would have been far too new to be tax exempt. The owners said " Yeah she is a Reliant Robin".

Laurence