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Can you fit a Slant engine without chassis mods?


BiTurbo228

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Pretty much what it says on the tin.

I'm looking to fit a Slant 4 1850 to a Spitfire as my next project. I've got my hands on a galvanised chassis which would form a great base for the project, but if I go around hacking into the crossmember as I've heard you need to for Sprint/Slant engine conversions then there's not really much point in it being galvanised to start with...

Just wondering really what the fouling points are when putting one in.

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Quoted from thescrapman
changes to NS front turret for the exhaust, and a cut out into the NS footwell for the front pipes, which need to be carefully passed down between gearbox and chassis rails.

Fairly sure no chassis work needed.


Exactly what I wanted to hear

I was thinking of fabbing a tubular exhaust which should help with the suspension turret and the chassis clearance.

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But why, just why would you want to do such a thing.......?

It's heavy, has known reliability issues, isn't an easy fit and isn't very powerful.......  Sure, the Ford V4 is nastier and the VW flat four is both nastier and harder to fit, but almost anything else is an improvement.......  Power to weight the 1500 probably beats it.

Yes, I have owned a Dolomite 1850, two in fact.  One of them even worked reasonably well some of the time in between mending the engine and scouring scrapyards for less broken gearboxes......

Nick

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I had a sprint lump in my spit many years ago and as far as I can remember I did not need to do any mods to the chassis, as the 1850 is the same block it probably will have the same fitting problems.

What I had to do was modify the sump ( turned it into a rear sump instead of a mid sump ) take a small bite out of the bulkhead next to the battery tray to clear the head and custom make a exhaust manifold which was taken around the front of the engine to the other side and then connected to a standard GT6 downpipe.

You will also need to get a oil filter relocation kit as the standard filter housing hits the chassis and needs to be cut down ( the filter ). The other problem you might have is with the carbs as they might hit the bonnet, I did not have this problem as I was using a GT6 bonnet which gave me clearance above carbs, also the sprint SU carbs have shorter dashpots than normal, but a set of webbers might sort this out. Also do not use the mechanical fan as it sits to high use an electric fan and with a bit of work you can use the stock spitfire mounting points but I would use GT6 mounting rubbers.

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I fitted a sprint engine/box to my mk3 spit (actually Gill's, my wifes car) back in teh early 90's. Job was done from start to (sort of) finished in a week of work, spread over a 2 week holiday.

I used the std sprint radiator, and fan, had to use a tiny bulge to clear the front carb. Only an inch, and that may have been avoidable with more time to hand.
Had to chop the bulkhead about, no sump mods, but the downpipe was an issue and was later remade. Came over the bellhousing and down between the box and chassis rails. Toasty for the passenger.....

Currently have an 1850 (ish) lump I have just fitted in my Toledo. It lacks the sparkle of the sprint engine. I was going to fit an alternative manufacturer's engine, but relented and kept it all Triumph. In retrospect fitting an alternative would have been no harder, and would have been way more powerful for similar outlay. (this is from experience, I have a zetec in my spitfire)

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The Spitfire 4 that had a Dolly Sprint lump that featured in an old car magazine in the 80s is still around and has been entered for use in next years RBRR.

Got to agree with Nick on this one, why though, much better engines around these days.

I still want to fit a 3 pot Ford Ecoboost engine and turbo to a Spitfire, super lightweight car with alloy panels etc etc.

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Quoted from Nick Jones
But why, just why would you want to do such a thing.......?

It's heavy, has known reliability issues, isn't an easy fit and isn't very powerful.......  Sure, the Ford V4 is nastier and the VW flat four is both nastier and harder to fit, but almost anything else is an improvement.......  Power to weight the 1500 probably beats it.

Yes, I have owned a Dolomite 1850, two in fact.  One of them even worked reasonably well some of the time in between mending the engine and scouring scrapyards for less broken gearboxes......

Nick


It's mainly out of curiosity. I'm fairly certain they planned to make it either alongside or instead of the 1500 and i want to see what such a car would be like.

It can also be done quite cheaply, which after my current project will be quite welcome

I'm also fairly certain i can get a reliable 115bhp from one if i rebuild it with care, and do things like have a proper expansion tank above the level of the engine.

I also had it pegged as 2-3kg heavier than the ohv 4. I'll stick mine on a set of scales to verify that though

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Quoted from kusanagi
I had a sprint lump in my spit many years ago and as far as I can remember I did not need to do any mods to the chassis, as the 1850 is the same block it probably will have the same fitting problems.

What I had to do was modify the sump ( turned it into a rear sump instead of a mid sump ) take a small bite out of the bulkhead next to the battery tray to clear the head and custom make a exhaust manifold which was taken around the front of the engine to the other side and then connected to a standard GT6 downpipe.

You will also need to get a oil filter relocation kit as the standard filter housing hits the chassis and needs to be cut down ( the filter ). The other problem you might have is with the carbs as they might hit the bonnet, I did not have this problem as I was using a GT6 bonnet which gave me clearance above carbs, also the sprint SU carbs have shorter dashpots than normal, but a set of webbers might sort this out. Also do not use the mechanical fan as it sits to high use an electric fan and with a bit of work you can use the stock spitfire mounting points but I would use GT6 mounting rubbers.


Ah cool a sprint engined gt6 will be my project after this one.  I've spotted the oil filter problem, and got bits for a filter relocation priced up.

I've also got a set of stromberg cd175s which are a little lower profile than the SUs which are on it at the moment so that mighy help with clearance. Need to measure how much though actually.

If they still don't clear i'll try and do a budget efi system by pinching one from a scrapyard and adapting it

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Quoted from cook1e
Has been done, here is a Turbo charged Dolly Sprint engine in a spitfire...  This car has been around for a few years now, built in the mid 90s, this picture taken at the TSSC SEM Leatherhead meet back in 2010.



Yeah i've seen that. Must be bloody quick do you know if they had to put bulges in the bonnet?

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Quoted from timbancroft61
The Spitfire 4 that had a Dolly Sprint lump that featured in an old car magazine in the 80s is still around and has been entered for use in next years RBRR.

Got to agree with Nick on this one, why though, much better engines around these days.

I still want to fit a 3 pot Ford Ecoboost engine and turbo to a Spitfire, super lightweight car with alloy panels etc etc.


Oh cool i'll see if i can swing by one of the watering holes

It's mainly because i quite like keeping it in the family engine-swap wise. I've got nothing against non-triumph engines in triumphs at all, just that i like the added challenge

A 3-pot ecoboost would be excellent seems like it's made for little sportscars like spits. Just need to wait til the latest batch of fiestas start ctopping up in breakers yards then you're good to go

Still need to find out how much the little ecoboost weighs actually. I've got a bit of a spreadsheet of engines with weights, power, bmep, max known displacement etc.

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Quoted from BiTurbo228




A 3-pot ecoboost would be excellent seems like it's made for little sportscars like spits. Just need to wait til the latest batch of fiestas start ctopping up in breakers yards then you're good to go



I think you will be lucky, I know a Ford dealer who is changing eco boost engines under warranty, like they have gone out of fashion. A significant number fail early, I am told at under 50,000 miles, it appears that there is too much power extracted from too small an engine.

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The engines from the ecoboost are readily available. Probably about half the cost of reconditioning a triumph 4 pot.

However, what nobody has yet done (notable exception being a ford-sponsored project) is to get them to run as a standalone engine without the rest of the car attached. No doubt it will happen, but will take some time.
I was thinking just the other day, the version of the Zetec in my spitfire went out of production nearly 20 years ago, the later development about 15 years. So even that is outdated by some margin! And I also heard a whisper that some serious development is happening to the latest Duratecs for racing (I won't say what series/type) but the aim is for 800+BHP, that is with a blower of some description attached. But in all honesty, at the moment the Zetec SE has to be the way forward. I would have used that if I was starting my project now. Or maybe a 2 litre duratec, 180BHP is so effortless with them.

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Quoted from mikew


I think you will be lucky, I know a Ford dealer who is changing eco boost engines under warranty, like they have gone out of fashion. A significant number fail early, I am told at under 50,000 miles, it appears that there is too much power extracted from too small an engine.



Interesting. Not just dodgy 70s triumph engines with a bit of a reputation

I wonder what it is that fails on them. It was a bit of a risk pitting such a high hp/l engine into a car driven mostly by people who wouldn't know an oil dipstick if it hit them in the face...

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Quoted from cliftyhanger
The engines from the ecoboost are readily available. Probably about half the cost of reconditioning a triumph 4 pot.

However, what nobody has yet done (notable exception being a ford-sponsored project) is to get them to run as a standalone engine without the rest of the car attached. No doubt it will happen, but will take some time.
I was thinking just the other day, the version of the Zetec in my spitfire went out of production nearly 20 years ago, the later development about 15 years. So even that is outdated by some margin! And I also heard a whisper that some serious development is happening to the latest Duratecs for racing (I won't say what series/type) but the aim is for 800+BHP, that is with a blower of some description attached. But in all honesty, at the moment the Zetec SE has to be the way forward. I would have used that if I was starting my project now. Or maybe a 2 litre duratec, 180BHP is so effortless with them.


I would have thought a megasquirt could get it to run. Maybe without the finesse of the tailored ford management, but that would only be a matter of time and calibration. Unless it's something to do with the direct injection...

One other consideration with a 3-cyl is that the power strokes are quite far apart so each would put a shock through the drivetrain. Would be a bit harsher on things like gearboxes and diffs. A type 9 would probably be alright for mid-power. Subaru or sierra diff in the back though?

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Quoted from BiTurbo228

A 3-pot ecoboost would be excellent seems like it's made for little sportscars like spits. Just need to wait til the latest batch of fiestas start ctopping up in breakers yards then you're good to go


They also fit them to Focus and Mondeo, so plenty to choose from.

They must be pretty stressed hauling 2-tonne of Mondeo about... 🤔

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Quoted from timbancroft61

I still want to fit a 3 pot Ford Ecoboost engine and turbo to a Spitfire, super lightweight car with alloy panels etc etc.


Good luck with that.  The engine controls on these are fiercely complicated and very much integrated with the rest of the car.  Stand alone using an aftermarket ECU will be a challenge. The direct injection and timing accuracy needed limits the choices.

There are quite a few horror stories concerning reliability, many of which seem to originate from poor boost control and bore washing caused by injection issues leading to piston ring and bore issues (Ford not the only ones affected by that - seems to be quite common on certain VAG products too).  I also note the internal, oil-lubricated timing belt..... oh yeah?

I do also wonder how light they really are compared to the Zetec SE/Sigma.  The Ecoboost 3 pot is not all alloy, having a CI block and also a turbo.

I think I'll be sticking to something simpler

Nick

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Quoted from cook1e


The bonnet is fibreglass and I do seem to remember it does have some bulges in it, not massive ones though.



Gotcha. Hoping I can avoid that with either low-profile Strombergs or cobbled together injection...

Quoted from cook1e
Ford Cosworth Turbo Engine fits nicely under a GT6 bonnet though with no extra bulges!



Bloody hell that must be quick. I do have a rather far-fetched plan of putting a Saab B202 turbo into a GT6 (chosen because it's descended from the Triumph Slant 4, so it flies for the 'in the family' engine swap rule I have). Should give a Cossy Spitfire a run for its money

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Quoted from Nick Jones


Good luck with that.  The engine controls on these are fiercely complicated and very much integrated with the rest of the car.  Stand alone using an aftermarket ECU will be a challenge. The direct injection and timing accuracy needed limits the choices.

There are quite a few horror stories concerning reliability, many of which seem to originate from poor boost control and bore washing caused by injection issues leading to piston ring and bore issues (Ford not the only ones affected by that - seems to be quite common on certain VAG products too).  I also note the internal, oil-lubricated timing belt..... oh yeah?

I do also wonder how light they really are compared to the Zetec SE/Sigma.  The Ecoboost 3 pot is not all alloy, having a CI block and also a turbo.

I think I'll be sticking to something simpler

Nick


Wikipedia (the font of all the worlds most accurate knowledge) has the ecoboost 3 down as 97kg dry, but whether that includes ancillaries and the turbo I'm not sure. Based on cross-referencing the weights I have for ecoboost V6s with ehat Wikipedia says I'm inclined to believe that is including ancillaries.

I've got the Zetec Sigma down as 102kg though so there's really not much in it, and they are phenomenal engines...

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Ok, interesting to have some actual numbers.  Chris with the T6 reckons somewhere in the 80s kg for the Sigma, but that may be without ancilliaries.

Presumably you know that there was a Triumph produced FI system for the Federal TR7, which ought to bolt on to an 1850.  There aren't many in the UK though.

Nick

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