I GIVE UP! help required or engine swop?

[mlawso16]

Hi i give up!

No matter what i have tried to get my stag running its a no go. changed carbs, dizzy's, coils. my cars stil popping and banging and has a serious lack of power too. its a timing fault i have checked the timing point they all seem to match up. even checked the cams are the right way around lh vs rh etc. checked the clearances which in some cases are fractionaly tight but i get good compression so they do close.

what ever, i dont seem to be able to do it so and unless some one is a master on these and can come and help me out im stuck. although im happy to help and cough up some dow if some one can fix it.

i know have a series of options to consider in my opinon.

A.) buy a good S/H truimph engine (manual type) pref complete for my stag V8. i do have another stag but its auto and the engine has been left years so results in things being welded on and breaking off.

B.) do a rover v8 transplant ILIKE THE SOUND OF THIS BTW but i need to know whats involved and what gearbox people use. or even has some one got the bits lying around??? i have heard talk on a conversion plate but where do i get one?

any help bit advise greatfully recieved.

[StagNL]

Don't jump off the cliff just yet.   You say it is a timing fault - how do you know that if all (so far as you say) points in the right direction?

OK, I take it from the other thread that you have the grooves in the cams lined up with the #2 cylinder (front one on LH side) at 0 degrees?  Pull out the spark plug on #2 and poke a bit of wire in there to check that the piston is indeed at its uppermost - get it wrong and you're 180 degrees out with the piston at its lowest point....  Really, do check this as the pulley with timing mark on the crank can spin around if the rare case of rubber bonding has failed.

Forget the valve clearances for now as even out of tolerance the engine should run OK.  For fine tuning it is indeed imperative to have them within specs but right now it shouldn't make so much of a difference.

Check you have the HT leads on in the correct positions on the dizzy cap.  Check here for a quick visual: http://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl/Blah.pl?m-1278861778/  Get two mixed up like I did and the engine will cough, backfire and have lower power.

What type of ignition do you have?  If it is points make sure they are in reasonable condition and check that capacitor thingy - they can go duff making engines run awful.

I take it that the fuel delivery and carbs are in working order?  Engine isn't flooding due to sticking float chamber valves?  Probably not this but I'm thowing it out anyway.  Air filter condition?  What happens when run without?  No air leaks between carbs and heads?  What is the condition/age of the fuel, and what is the fuel type (95 -98 RON)?

Do you have access to a vaccum gauge?  Very handy little device that tells a lot about what is eventually wrong with the engine.  

Do tell where you are as then somebody might be inclined to get over and get their fingers dirty.  I'd be willing if you wait two weeks and pay ferry expenses....

Do you have a workshop manual of any kind?

Very likely the problem will be something really simple but just overlooked - or something really rare and weird - once rectified it will then put a smile on you face.

Julian

[Nick Jones]

Whereabouts are you - another pair of eyes and ears often helps?  Difficult to diagnose faults like this by forum - though we do try!  :)

Nick

[thescrapman]

Don't stags time on a different cylinder to what you expect?? i.e. time on no.2.

Or is it that Stags number the cylinders differently.

Not my area of expertise, yet.

Anyway, if it is coughing and banging you are not that far off, so a thorough re-read of the manual and a couple of questions on here should see you sorted.

Cheers

Colin

[StagNL]

thescrapman wrote:

Don't stags time on a different cylinder to what you expect?? i.e. time on no.2.

Colin, that is 100% correct.  Cylinders are numbered 1-3-5-7 on the RH side, 2-4-6-8 on the LH side - numbers also cast into the inlet manifold.  Reason for timing being on #2 is that the derivitive slant 4 concept (Dolly + TR7) had only one bank of cyls - the LH one.

You'd be surprised at the ammount of people who don't bother reading the manual.  I've not made the mistake myself but have seen several others dive in without looking in regards to the timing.
As they say; if all else fails, JRTFM - Just Read The Flaming Manual.    <-- if you have one that is...

Julian

[Spin]

I agree with StagNL, check the leads are plugged in correctly and each end of each lead go to the correct location. Do you have lumenition or points? if you have Lumenition have you checked that. You can get some limited info on fault finding on line for the Lumenition. Spin

[mlawso16]

I have been around this a while even sent it to a garage no joy....

see this link from previous trying to get it6 running.

im in birmingham if that helps.

i now have the carbs which i have cleaned from my other stag and its still bad news.

[Richard B]

Could it be an air leak?

The pedestal 'O' ring on mine was leaking and I could not start it.

[StagNL]

What kind of garage did you send it off to?   Folks at the garage where I get the MOT ticket I would not trust doing any mechanical work on my car - they didn't even know how to fix a flooding carb - sprayed carb cleaner in it and said it was OK but 3 miles down the road it obviously wasn't.

As others have also mentioned, having another set of eyes and ears that know the engine type may help.  Getting it right may only be a question of 30 minutes of fiddling about.  If something is broken it might only be a tenner, or may indeed be more expensive.  One thing is certain:  if you transplant another engine it will definitely cost you a fair packet.

Julian

[mlawso16]

if i could fix it i would

so far.
new plugs although the poor runnings no doing them much good
new leads yes there all on right and i sequence checked several times
had new seal on carb manifold
had new needle on one carb as that broke
new diaphrams
new fuel and it clean changed filters and it come out at some rate too.
i have several dizzys  with points and now elec ignition back on
several coils
changed ballast resister
hot wired to the coil and strater to take all trhe car elecs away
the list goes on so i gave it over to a garage, he has experiance of triumphs to and is a club member.
he adjusted the timing fractionly on the gears but since this its gone down hill from where i had it.

im quite competent myself. but this one just has me beat.

[StagNL]

OK, covered a lot of bases then.  Dunno if you can get your hands on a vaccum gauge but they do tell a fair ammount of what is wrong.  Tells you whether there are rats nests in the exhaust, holed pistons, timing advanced or retarded, air leaks etc.

Also there are some very knowledgable Staggers on the forum over at: http://www.triumphstag.net/start/index.htm    At first you'll have to repeat everything you've mentioned here but then there should be some constructive suggestions following.

Julian

[don cook1]

I remember stripping my Strombergs down (GT6) and replacing the choke mechanism the wrong way (as there isn't anything that allows a 'one' fit only), took them off refitted them and it ran OK after that.

[mlawso16]

oww me head.

spent a few more hours trying to set this up. still no go. this is going to sound real stupid but i take it the bottom pully is on a shaft and cant be put on in the wrong place can it? the top end seems to line up at least and yest the engine appears to be on top at NO2 when the top ends lined up.

as i have two sets of carbs i have the other set on off the other car that i know work and its still the same.

sighhh

marc

[Flying Farmer]

The vacuum gauge idea is not as daft as it seems. I had a problem on a freshly rebuilt engine a few years ago which bugged me for months. The problem turned out to be a sticking cam follower on one of the inlets. It would not show up on a compression test and threw out the mixture on the side of the manifold supplied by one carb, probably as it was blowing back into the inlet manifold.
My cure turned out to be simply refitting one of the worn cam followers I had replaced with new ones during the rebuild, the new one had nothing wrong with it, and replacing it with another new one made no difference.
It is also possible you have a weak valve spring which would cause a similar problem, but if it is something like this you will find the problem is on an inlet valve not an exhaust as this would isolate the problem to one cylinder.
I had a similar problem on a triumph toledo when I was at college, and that was caused by one of the valve spring caps where the collets somehow pulled themselves too deep into the cap causing the valve spring to lose tension, that took some finding too, but at least the spring cap wasnt hidden by the cam bucket
Neil

[piman]

Hello Marc,

reading all the posts I'm still convinced it is ignition timing/sequence that is the problem. When you check the sequence, you are aware which direction the distributor rotates?

However it's still worth checking the cam settings, I will firstly say I'm not familiar with the Stag engine, but I assume normal engine criteria apply. If no 2 is the ignition timing reference, get no 2 to TDC firing and look at the number 8 valves, they should be rocking, basically at TDC they should be at equal lift. rotate the engine back and forth about TDC and one valve on numer 8 should be closing, reverse direction ant the other will be closing.
Do the same on number 7 with number 1 on TDC firing.
You ask about the bottom pulley, yes this is keyed and can only fit in one place.

Alec

[StagNL]

1310 wrote:

... this is going to sound real stupid but i take it the bottom pully is on a shaft and cant be put on in the wrong place can it? the top end seems to line up at least and yest the engine appears to be on top at NO2 when the top ends lined up.

piman wrote:

You ask about the bottom pulley, yes this is keyed and can only fit in one place.

The bottom pulley assembly is indeed held by a woodruff key.  The actual pulley with timing mark however is only fixed to the bit with the key via a rubber bond.  I have heard of at least one case (Stag engine) of the rubber bond failing and thus allowing pulley to rotate.  That means in such a case that the timing mark on the pulley will be 'off' while the rest of the timing marks (cams) will be at their respective correct positions at #2 TDC.  

piman wrote:

However it's still worth checking the cam settings, I will firstly say I'm not familiar with the Stag engine, but I assume normal engine criteria apply. If no 2 is the ignition timing reference, get no 2 to TDC firing and look at the number 8 valves, they should be rocking, basically at TDC they should be at equal lift. rotate the engine back and forth about TDC and one valve on numer 8 should be closing, reverse direction ant the other will be closing.

Picture says a lot, #2 cyl at TDC during rebuild:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12619047@N04/4407192660/in/set-72157622282834172/
Julian

[piman]

Hello Julian,

interesting picture, with number two on TDC, it looks as if number six is rocking not number eight or is it one of the odd bank, difficult to see those? However should give Mlawso a guide?

Alec

Alec

[StagNL]

Well, I do know that the Stag V8 has a different firing order compared to many other V8s such as the Rover.   Firing order is 1, 2, 7, 8, 4, 5, 6, 3.
Oh, don't forget that the distributor also rotates anticlockwise - quite the opposite of many other V8s.

Checking this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firing_order  I notice that the Holden V8 (no longer produced) has the same firing order as the Triumph despite being a relatively close development of a Chevy design that fires differently.  Holden V8s always did sound glorious...

Another pic but now from the front.  http://www.flickr.com/photos/12619047@N04/4407192260/in/set-72157622282834172/  
You can click on the large version to get a better look at where the cam lobes are on the RH head.

Julian

[piman]

Hello Julian,

the flikr link didn't work properly, it took me to another set of pictures?

There's a few quirky engines about, such as the early Jaguars which has number one cylinder at the back.

Alec

[StagNL]

Dunno what went wrong with that link, try this instead:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12619047@N04/4407192260/sizes/l/in/set-72157622282834172/
that other link eventually takes you to something else of mine - scratch built soft top header rail.

I know what you mean about quirky.  Even the Stag engine is in regards to its cylinder numbering.  We all know that it is related to the slant 4 from the dolly - so why didn't they just call the LH front cyl number 1?  Would have made it a lot easier for all those numptys trying to time the engine on #1.  I guess Triumph at the time saw that the RH bank front cyl was forwards of the LH front and thus called the RH front #1.  Mos other V8s have #1 on the LH side so it would have made sense to most folks...

[mlawso16]

I HAVE LIFE!!! not much but it running better.

damn tempermental dizzy and timing sequence. there where a few errors....

i know have my MK2 carbs on although you can lift the pots quite far before it makes any differance thats this weeks job i hate playing with carb settings. specially when there are 2 to play with.

now the dizzy is currently set in a very stange position more in a mo, to get it running i bassicly i stripped the whole lot off and started again carbs dizzy balast coil the lot and pieced it together one issue.

question 1 - timed the car back up so the dizzy rota was lined up with 2 which may i add seems as if its pointing at 90 degrees to the back of the engine and not towards the bolt on the coil as per book. is this ok norm etc? if not how do you change it. is it as simple as take out the dizzy turn it slighty so it does point and realign the leads?

question 2 - it runs and is smooth and not lumpy like it used to be no real banging or blow back...... always a good point i think. BUT the dizzy is very near on the back bolt to even think about getting it to start. once started it will stay running thou. HOWEVER i now dont seem to have any adjustment for the dizzy to rotate where i need it. so how do i overcome this. i think its a result of Q1 above.

question 3 its currently set at 0 with elec ignition when i try to get it to go 14 BTDC its a pig again im lucky if i manage 4. So is there a specail setting with elec ignition where you dont have to do this i wonder? its the old pirrahna unit sytem any one know.

any way i think i know have a issue where i need to alter the carbs up to compensate on the timing and maybe get some of the timing adjustment back.

[thescrapman]

With a Piranha fitted the distributor will end up in a different position to points.

BTDT !!

You may need to rotate all the plug leads round 1 position.

Cheers

Colin

[StagNL]

1:  Not sure what you mean exactly in regards to 'pointing 90 degrees to the back', but normally it shouldn't be far off what the book says.  Getting it to point as per book is exactly as you though - pulling dizzy out and rotating the innards a little and then poking it back in.  Basically as you insert the dizzy the shaft will rotate as the angled teeth mesh with those on the jackshaft - goes though something around 45 degrees - which is 1/8th rotation...

2:  Near the back bolt?  I take it you mean the dizzy housing is at its limit of rotation within the mounting bolts?  Yes, altering as above will likely gain some.

3:  I am not at all familiar with Piranha, sorry no specific help there.  But I will say that my own Newtronic system is set by stroboscope at 14 BTDC - no special methods.  It can even be set at 20-24 BTDC without the engine running awfull.  If I hazzard a guess, your dizzy setting, the leads and rotor position in particular, are still one position (45 degrees) out.  I reckon it may well be that by rotating the dizzy to its current limits that it is near a reasonable zone where it will run, anything else is just too far off.  Could be I have that all wrong - is the dizzy now rotated fully clockwise or anti-clockwise?

Julian

[mlawso16]

At this point i need to say a big thanks to all that have helped with this so far.

I took the the dizzy out yesterday and rotated it around a tooth. it worked i know have some timing adjustment to play with and its set at 14 degrees its a mk1 and should be 16 but it seems better at 14.

result bolt it appx half way around in hole and dizzy at No2 points to the bolt on the coil as per book.

seems to be running better any way and i have more power then before although i cough and splutters under load.

all i need to do know is set up the carbs properly..... which i always struggle with.

but hey things a definatly looking up.

thanks

marc

[StagNL]

You're nearly there then!  Coughing and spluttering could indeed be carb settings.

I'm guessing that your car is spluttering even with elec. ign.  i.e. you no longer have the points setup fitted?  You mention having many types at hand so....

Julian