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Worrying Engine Noises


Spitfire1500

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Hey everyone,

Got a bit of a problem with my car engine (or something that's connected to it rather). Basically, if I start up the car the engine sounds fine and the tickover (although a bit slow) is fine and my car doesn't want to stall or anything.

However, as soon as I put a bit of gas on, a terrible rubbing/scraping noise ensues.

The car will happilly go to 4000rpm, even 5000 or 6000.

However, the noise still remains throughout the range. It doesn't get louder bit I think it goes faster with the engine.

Pete has suggested the timing cover or water pump, as both of these are located on the front of the engine and this seems to be where the noise is coming from.

I have my MoT test this Thursday. Hopefully my parts will arrive before then at least and perhaps I can ask one of the mechanics what they think.

Anyone have any ideas, or wouldn't mind coming over to help me find it's root cause one of these evenings?

Thanks,

David

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Spitfire1500 wrote:
The car will happilly go to 4000rpm, even 5000 or 6000.


You really, REALLY don't want to take a 1500 engine to 6000rpm regularly, preferably never.
Noise could be water pump, try placing a metal rod gainst different parts of the engine and listening at the other end, stethoscope style. This should help you pin down where it's coming from,
Cheers,
Bill.

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heraldcoupe wrote:


You really, REALLY don't want to take a 1500 engine to 6000rpm regularly, preferably never.
Noise could be water pump, try placing a metal rod gainst different parts of the engine and listening at the other end, stethoscope style. This should help you pin down where it's coming from,
Cheers,
Bill.


Hehe nope, that's true, 6000 is a lot of hard work for the engine! I gave it a very short rev to 2500, then to 4000 and further.

I've only done it three times - just recently and twice where my throttle pedal got stuck, that was really, really scary!

I'll hunt around for a metal thing that I can use to listen out for the noise, hopefully it's nothing too serious, but better fixed than to cause damage.

Thanks again,

David

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Not the timing cover, when I put my hand on it it was nice, no knocking and it's not a tinny noise. I was only surmising at first. It's a heavy grating noise with a knock. Comes on as soon as he revs it and stays there. Feeling around I could feel it through the water pump but obviously there are only so many places you can put your hand around that area when the engine is turning. And it was only a 2 second check. Dave hasn't got a nice big screwdriver yet, even though every time I go around there I ask for one to use as a listening rod. ;D


On the plus side, I saw your car, touched it AND it didn't break.  :o
Maybe I'm not the jinx I thought I was. Bah, I'm all boring now.  :'(

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What are the engine mounts like? Could it be that the engine/manifold is fouling the chassis because of weak engine mounts possibly exascerabted by a the engine needing tuning and being out of balance? This sounds like a mechanical problem caused by vibration or knocking rather than the engine itself.

Neil

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Cheers for the help and advice,

Secretsenor - timing belt was recently replaced for a new one - although worth looking at I should think.

Mattius - might ask for a hand with this - although I need to turn my car around first (so the bonnet gets the daylight) as I was testing my handbrake and reverse gear on the slope to my garage.

Canleyclassics - I'm sorry, I'm clueless - whereabouts are the viscous couplings and how would I go about testing them?

Ferny - hehe yeah nothing broke! But I think something major will break, just in time for my MoT re-test just to make up for that!

Neilnaz - the engine mounts sounds a reasonable assumption - I remember my mounts not being in all that great a condition so perhaps they ought to be looked at.

Hopefully I will be having a look and listen tonight, to find out what it could be.

Thanks again everyone,

David

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Does the noise go away when you put your foot on the clutch ?

A North London TSSC area GT6 was making a funny knocking/grumbling noise, and the combined assesment of those present at Club Night was that the engine would have to come out to investigate.

It's a good thing that it did - the Flywheel bolts were loose !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sure that several of the members of this message board will remember the incident.

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Dave (Canleyclassics) means the viscous fan if you have one of those fitted. Spitfires either have a standard fan attached to the water pump or a viscous fan that either turns with the water pump when the engine is hot or doesn't. These are notorious for failing and taking the radiator out when they do fail. You really need to track down where the noise is coming from by describing the sound and under what circumstances you hear it.

For instance, does it chnage with engine speed?
Does it come and go with pressing in the clutch whilst the engine is running?
Does it come and go when selecting all gears whilst the engine is running?
Is it metallic (i.e. metal against metal) vibration?
Can you rule out engine internal noise?

You need to be systematic to rule things out and use, as others have suggested, a sound probe touched against various parts of the engine and other ancillaries.

What do you mean about changing the timing belt? Do you mean fan belt or timing chain? If you changed the fan belt did you overtighten it putting too much stress on the water pump? have you checked the alternator? They can make screachy noises if running dry. Try spraying some WD40 when the engine is off where the pulley of the alternator runs into the alternator body. Please avoid getting WD40 on the fan belt itself.

I hope these suggestions are helpful.

neil

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neilnaz wrote:
Dave (Canleyclassics) means the viscous fan if you have one of those fitted. Spitfires either have a standard fan attached to the water pump or a viscous fan that either turns with the water pump when the engine is hot or doesn't. These are notorious for failing and taking the radiator out when they do fail. You really need to track down where the noise is coming from by describing the sound and under what circumstances you hear it.

For instance, does it chnage with engine speed?
Does it come and go with pressing in the clutch whilst the engine is running?
Does it come and go when selecting all gears whilst the engine is running?
Is it metallic (i.e. metal against metal) vibration?
Can you rule out engine internal noise?

You need to be systematic to rule things out and use, as others have suggested, a sound probe touched against various parts of the engine and other ancillaries.

What do you mean about changing the timing belt? Do you mean fan belt or timing chain? If you changed the fan belt did you overtighten it putting too much stress on the water pump? have you checked the alternator? They can make screachy noises if running dry. Try spraying some WD40 when the engine is off where the pulley of the alternator runs into the alternator body. Please avoid getting WD40 on the fan belt itself.

I hope these suggestions are helpful.

neil


Cheers Neil,

I am going to be using either my spare metal fuel pipes or some thin hollow metal piping to try this out and have the help of someone this evening to rev the engine, change gears, clutch etc.

Made a note of all your pointers above and going to be trying them out this evening when I get back.

The fan I have is a standard one - comes on with ignition and spins as fast as the engine. My car is pretty much all original.

Hopefully I will find out then where the problem is coming from this evening!

Thanks again,

David

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If you take the fan belt off & the noise stops you will know if the noise is coming from the water pump or timing chain. I had a similar problem due to the timing chain tensioner snapping. Could be that fitting a new timing chain has caused the old tensioner to break if you didn't replace that too. Water pumps usually squeal as the bearing starts to fail, rather than grating, in my experience. If you can get to a branch easily, Machine Mart sell an excellent mechanic's stethoscope for about a fiver that helps locate exactly where otherwise unlocatable noises are coming from. Just be careful not to get mangled by the fan or other moving parts!
Peter  

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Hey everyone,

I think I've cracked it!

Got a spare metal flexible pipe (I looked like a right twit) and put one end in my ear and the other on various parts of the engine.

It seems to be coming from the water pump. I haven't read the Haynes manual on the water pump yet - what fails, what might need replacing how it's removed and how it is replaced.

But that seems to be where all the racket is coming from.

My engine has not got any over-heating problems as yet but then it hasn't been run very hard I shouldn't think - round to the MoT station and back and idling for long periods of time.

Ah well, that's that mystery solved.

It's probably a gasket or spring or something that's gone...but I'll have to open it and find out after the MoT is sorted.

David

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im assuming your fan is one of the metal ones thats bolted directly to the pully,  some of the later cars had the viscous couplings as standard and i think they have plastic fans, you would see it in between the fan and the pulley.  They limit the speed at wich the fan revs when the engine is revving highly.  

If it is a fixed one like mine could be the bearing or ive not heard of it on a triumph butr sometimes the pump impellers can break up

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I would change the water pump asap David. You don't want it failing and the engine overheating. They are simpleish to change with a new gasket (etc).

They do fail by themselves but the sometimes it can be caused by the fanbelt being overtightened stressing the bearing. Good news that you found the problem.

Best of luck, Neil

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Hey everyone,

My fan is the plastic/viscous type. I heard the water pump working with the flexible metal pipe (which is now mishapen, ah well, not to worry).

It sounds like there is flow from the water pump but from the same area I can hear the noise.

Still, should be a simple case of replacing any springs or gaskets or washers.

Thanks everyone,

David

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David is the fan a fixed or a viscous coupled one? I think you are confusing the fan blade composition with the actual type of fan/water pump you have. An easy way to tell is when the car is cold, does the fan turn? If it is a viscous coupled one then it only turns/spins when the engine has got up to temperature. These viscous coupled fans were fitted to later Spits. http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/spitfire/images/24b.gif These are renowned for going wrong. When they do they usually take the radiator out with them as the fan flies off. Not pretty. If you have a normal solid-driven fan http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/spitfire/images/24a.gif then the fan just spins with te water pump.

Either way, you need to change it in my opinion. The water pump, if it is the fixed fan needs to be changed. If you have a viscous fan that is failing then I would imagine that you should just put a normal water pump and fan on. Three studs hold the water pump on with nuts and washers. You will need to change the gasket and use some blue hylomar to give a good seal.

Neil

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Cheers, Neil,

The fan spins with the pump.

It's a constant thing - it doesn't stop at all, it spins with the engine and doesn't stop (just gets faster with the pump/engine speed). Unless of course, I turn the ignition off!

Pumps aren't cheap though - I think around £55. Hopefully if I take mine off in the next few days, I'll find that it's only the washers/springs etc. that need replacing and not the whole pump, but I'll have to wait and see!

Thanks again,

David

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Water pump is part number GWP128 and is £24.95 from Canleys. Nuts are part number HN2008 £0.10 from Canleys. Gaskets are part number 138701 and are £0.40. You should be able to reuse the nuts and washers possibly but I tend to buy new ones. The studs will probably be OK. You really just need the pump and gasket.

I have no affiliation to Canleys I just use them mostly for bits. Other suppliers may have difefrent prices but £25ish quid plus VAT and delivery is not £55 David.

I wouldn't leave the pump squealing away or whatever kind of noise it is making as if it fails then you lose cooling and will probably kill the head gasket. You may find a water pump on Ebay for less.

neil

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The water pump can easily be eliminated or diagniosed as the cause of the problem by running the engine for a couple of minutes with the fan belt removed.  If the noise is still present, then it's not the water pump or alternator.  If the noise has disapeared, then its either the water pump or the alternator.

Only the very old waterpumps can be rebuilt - and its unlikely that you have one on your car.  The "modern" ones have sealed for life bearings that cannot be replaced, and a pressed on pulley.  The "old" ones have seals and a centre bolt to remove the pulley - but the seals are no longer available, so you still can't rebuild them.

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