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Stage 2 6cyl engine


jackri

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Hello yet again,

last one of teh day, I promise.

OK, this winter/spring, I will be buying a stage 2 6cyl 2ltr engine for my GiTfire - everything else (suspension, steering, barkes) are all done, so now we need oomph.

However...

I've looked at loads of units from teh likes of Jigsaw racing, Rimmer, Moss, TSSC (sorry) but I have no idea which is 'the best' unit -

OK, is best "most reliable/fastest/most powerful/easiest to drive/most economical" hear you ask. I simply don't know. I've yet to see any review of Stage 2 engines & would love to call on teh experience of people out there to see what they have found  in teh marketplace.

As always, any guidance gratefully received.

All the very best,
Jack

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Rather than buy a "stage 2 engine" (what does that mean?) from one of the big suppliers who get it built by someone else then add a mark up, I would find an engine shop with a good reputation & discuss exactly what you want with them.

Have a look in previous threads for recommended mods, balancing etc that you should be after.

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Hi Charlie,

Thanks for the idea; though people such as Jigsaw build their own engines, so they are teh horse's mouth as it were. My trouble is that i know a little about a lot of things, so I knwo that I need a cam with a different profile on teh cam lobes, but i don't know what would suit a triple dellorto setup - in fact, I don't know what needle setting would be best etc. etc.

Cheers
Jack

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I agree with CharlieB,
What you need to decide first, what are your needs from the car, track day, road use??
Are you staying with carbs? Injection?
Will the gearbox/ drive train cope?
A Mk2 Vitesse engine is around 98BHP, how much more do you want?
A lot of so called tuning bits make a standard engine produce LESS power!
Read GTEVO's book on tuning Triumphs! ;D

Simon

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Lordy,

Now that would be a backward step going for a more feeble unit!

The idea is that the setup will produce approx 160BHP (after talking to Jigsaw & Moss)

It will be fast road
Will have triple dellortos
Gel Battery to crank it
6-3-1 extractor exhaust
elec ign
flamethrower coil

The brakes have been uprated to cope. As has teh steering. Spax adj rear, uprated/shortened springs over Gaz shocks with adjustable collars. New rear spring with Canley Spacer for neg camber improvement & new rotoflexes & trunnions etc..

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Hi Jackri,

We've all been there! The big questions what is "Fast Road"? What is Stage2 or Stage3? The simple answer is that these terms do not have standard definitions but are great marketing speak. Ignore the claims of people who are trying to sell you something.

Now, looking at your needs and what you have said so far:

Triple Dellortos - great choice but useless (and expensive) unless you intend to do some serious modification to the engine. Big SU's might be easier to live with for "fast road".

Gel battery - why? expensive, an ordinary battery would do and save up for a hi torque starter that you will surely need if you want higher compression (also allows you to use smaller battery).

6.3.1 exhaust - the only one to have.

Electronic ign etc does not increasepower just reliability really.

Basically you need to decide what you want out of your engine. But to start you need build a good short engine with balanced crank & pistons and the block decked to zero the piston heights (and ensure correct CR). Then sort the breathing with gas flowed head and radiused valve seats, reduced stem valves would be nice too but expensive. CR should be about 10:1.

Then you need to choose a cam - you will get as many opinions as people you ask I'm afraid! Needless to say you need something that suits your purposes which on a "fast road" 2 litre means you need torque.

ABove all, do not let yourself be seduced by the bling and Bullsh*t. Spend your money on carefully machined and built. All tuning is an accumalitive activity that has to start with the first principles. Carefully select your mods to compliment each other.

Bolt on horsepower is rare and bloody expensive at HP per £. e.g, simply bolting on triple Dellortos or Webers will cost you £££££££ for no gain at all unless the engine has been specced for them. I know I run triple Weber DCOM but the rest of the engine has been designed around them and it's not really "fast road" .

You should educate yourself. Read up on the subject or you will get seduced into buying what you don't need. I read Kastner, Vizard etc on Triumph and a miriad of more generic books, the principles are always the same. ANd the biggest gains come from the best quality work. Beware of sweeping horsepower claims.

130BHP is probably realistic and easily achievable on SU's. Would make a nice road car, but more cheaply realised by swapping in a 2500 which is why so many go that route. 160 BHP is achievable but really pushing the envelope for a 2 litre road car IMHO, that extra 30 BHP could be expensive and take away some "streetability".

Having said all this, I will probably get shot down by the experts, but I am just relating my experience so far really.

rgds

George

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Brilliant - I love the dialogue/debate.

I agree, everyone I speak to has a different opinion.

I already have teh triples, so that's a goer & yes, teh engine will be built around this(dependent on advice etc. - have read up on & spoken with Jon Wolfe on this subjet, as well as Jigsaw & soem people at TSSC races etc.)

Again, i agree that torque is a fair idea with teh 2ltr, but i have yet to hear anyone advise going down teh 2.5ltr route as the units are not so hot (longer stroke??) nor so powerful. I really am aiming for circa 150 (whihc i appreciate is standard for, say,  TR engine)

Appreciate that elec ign won't add anything except reliability - I like teh idea of that - I'm hoping to get over for classic le mans or teh spa 6hr this year.

Gel battery because of its better cranking power - I will also go for a hi-torque unit too. Mine (new 65 AH & new starter) still struggles when it gets hot & I have to open teh bonnet & wait for 5 mins at petrol stations.

From what i have read up thus far, stage 2 is as far as I want to go - I appreciate that there are different levels of stage 2, but the cross section of what I have seen offers reliability with a (modest?) increase in power.

Cheers for teh info on further toilet reading - I'll have a dig about

Jack

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Thanks for all your input.

Yeah, John would be great to tap (if only) to get his engine man...

There are a couple of people in the TSSC who do the same, but it does seem to be like a closed membership only.

I very much trust word-of-mouth but lips do seem to be tightly sealed.

Cheers
Jack

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Got to agree with the genral consensus of advice thus far. Were I in your shoes, I would knuckle down to some serious research before I make any outlay.
The consensus of opinion here is largely gained through experiance (both good and bad).
As you have Dellorotos, first of all, if you haven't already done so, confirm whether they are indeed the correct ones for your application! Are they matched? Are they the correct size? I would speak to Dave Powell (Sideways) about the specifics of what you have.  He is always pleased to help out with info and advice- in fact, you would struggle to find someone more experianced on the subject, without paying an absolute arm and a leg for the advice. Heck, if it turns out your carbs arn't what you thought they were, or they arn't best suited to your planned application, flog 'em on Flea-bay and get yourself  a decent pair of HS6/HIF6/HIF44 carbs and you can make a very VERY capable two litre road car indeed.
  Speak to GTEVO and he may stil have a copy of his Tuning Manual for sale. This is a tuning manual, not a list of go-faster parts(of question-able value). his theories on what you actually need to achieve what you are after, are very inetersting indeed. Less is more! Stick to the basics and take a careful measured approach and you should achieve what you are after, without un-necessary expense. ;D
  Anyway, best of luck.

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Ah GT6bay - this is where you've been hiding!  Dropped you an email about a year ago on a suspension question if memory serves - assuming that the image shows your GiTfire & if I recall correctly its your brother at the wheel - either that or I've got it all wrong, so apologies...

If it is you, then I sorted teh problem (wheel arch fouling when using crappy spax adjustables)

Please anyone/everyone - delighted with teh feedback so far & the info is very encouraging

Thanks all
Jack

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Hey-hey! Nice one Jack.  Yes you're memory serves you right- it is indeed my twin brother in the picture. Glad you got your suspension sorted- bloody Spax! :X
Come on over- you know you want to! ;D
Ditto on Chris Witor. Nice bloke. :)


jackri wrote:
Ah GT6bay - this is where you've been hiding!  Dropped you an email about a year ago on a suspension question if memory serves - assuming that the image shows your GiTfire & if I recall correctly its your brother at the wheel - either that or I've got it all wrong, so apologies...
If it is you, then I sorted teh problem (wheel arch fouling when using crappy spax adjustables)
Please anyone/everyone - delighted with teh feedback so far & the info is very encouraging
Thanks all
Jack


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Jackri

Nice car

Try and blag a ride in a few different cars when the weather is a bit better, It might give you some kind of idea on what you might want / can expect from various engine mods. Not sure where your based, usually on a Saturday morning there's several of us meet up for a coffee and a chat at KD Triumph's place, my car is the only runner at the moment but you never know by early next year KD might have his 2.0 L Tripple Webbered Vitesse up and running, he's also working on his own GT6 race / road car, Big Dave's Modified 2500 Vitesse on twin SU's is close to completion, Andy and Johnny Jimbo have got Vitesse rebuilds going on, Jony5's also within travelling distance of Coventry and is planning some major modifications. Would'nt recommend going for an off the shelf Stage ? engine. Find someone you get on with / trust and let them build it if your not happy about doing the work yourself.

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I'd have thought 150 bhp from a 2 litre would be relatively easy... 180 from a 2.5 is and you can't rev those past 6000 .

Niges car must give at least 150 on those HS6's... I've driven it far and hard enough to know that a 2000 doesn't go that well with a boot full of gear and three big lads without some genuine BHP.(need injection really Nige)

I think the key to good bhp and more importantly TORQUE is Lucas PI, TR5 Cam, a good 6-3-1 exhaust and a 2000 engine based on the flat top piston variety with the head skimmed to say 10:1 CR ....  150bhp EASY

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jackri wrote:
Thanks for all your input.

Yeah, John would be great to tap (if only) to get his engine man...

There are a couple of people in the TSSC who do the same, but it does seem to be like a closed membership only.

I very much trust word-of-mouth but lips do seem to be tightly sealed.

Cheers
Jack



I'm a TSSC member. Unfortunately, it seems a bit closed shop these days 'cos the new forum is only open to members, something I vehemently disagree with. The forum is also a shadow of it's former self (read into that what you will) and many have migrated here like me.

Some of the advice is constant - i.e. read up on all the "proper" tuning books e.g. Kastner, Vizard (I have PDF if you require), GT (GTEVO - back in print I believe). As I say the first principles are the same. Like Dave says - decide your specification and define it on paper then tout it around the local machine shops for quotes. Visit them all and inspect the premises as I did ("vendor evaluation").  The decision of who to go with was made based on my visit to their facilities and a chat with the manager - I made the right decision - Robinson ENgineering in Ferndown Dorset. No Triumph connection but mostly do commercial vehicle engines, they have significant investment in machinery. This is what you are looking for.

When you have educated yourself, you will be able to spot the bullsh*t. I am very skeptical about a lot of the so called top names after seeing some of the v. expensive engines that don't do as well as my home built one (one expired in a couple of laps of Goodwood). What's more mine has now done about 10,000 hard miles with no appreciable wear. In the end you have to trust yoyr own judgement.  Good luck

George

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I'm with you George - I do occasionally use teh TSSC forum (on & off a member since 1982!!) but there does seem to be a bit of an 'old boy's network' kinda thing about it. Pretty sad, as otherwise it's a good outfit, though it has been diluted a bit in recent years - progress I suppose...

If you do have a pdf of the tuning books you refer to, I would be endebted to you to receive them - my email is jack@jacksvoice.co.uk - thinking i ought to do a profile at some poiint...

I'm not a million miles from Dorst - North Wilts, so fairly near ish, so it would be good to understand what the guys at Robson Eng can do - as you all rightly say "Get educated first Jack!"

Thank-you once again
Jack

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I am very lucky to know Steve Phillips (Steve has a 2.3L in his GT6), Mr. GTEVO knows him as well.
After my "flywheel" incident Steve rebuilt the engine for me (I was very pissed off and had threatened to get rid of the car!!).
When it came back, I could not believe how fast it picked up, nor how smooth the engine sounded.
The car was on HS6 SU’s, it gave a BMW a big surprise on the M1 when he sat on my tail!!
The end result was the gearbox broke 20 months ago!!
On Lucas injection it is reckoned to make around (2.5L) 190BHP and 250ft/lb torque, it was dam quick on carbs!!

Simon

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Hi GT6 Mike - interesting cars knocking about out there.

i would be VERY interested to learn about other people's experiences with triple weber type setup.

As in previous post - I'm down in Wiltshire, but it's only an hour to teh Cov/Warwick area.

I especially like teh "Don't go for off the shelf" advice - consider this not done.

Cheers once again,
Jack

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