Door Alignment

[Matt306]

Hi i have the passenger door on my Herald 13/60 and it shuts and closes ok so happy days...4 penny washers needed for the door under the read mounting point for the bulk head.
On the drivers door i have had to use 7 washers on the mounting point. I now have a V shape where the door closes on the B post effectively meaning the door lock doesnt catch.

Where do i need to pack next??

[Matt306]

Anyone please?

[Stodders]

Having spent months getting a convertible to fit properly there could be many different things that you will need to do. If you just have a gap too large at the top rear of a door you may just need to raise the rear body section. Leave the furthest forward mounting tight and pack the remainder on that side progressively more as you work back. I doubt however that it will be that simple! What work have you actually done to the car, has it had the body off or are you just replacing the doors?  If you post some pictures that would be a great help.  

Good luck

[Matt306]

It's been body off. 7 outriggers replaced. As the old were all patched and welded I couldn't reliably use them for reference. I used the green manual and measured three times before welding.

[Matt306]

I am away at the moment so will photograph on my return.

[Stodders]

One bit of advice would be to avoid using the rubber spacers that you get with the kits from a few suppliers as nothing else very stays where you put it!

[Matt306]

Don't The rubber washers minimise vibrations? Whatever alternative?

[Stodders]

Why do you think they didn't use rubber when they built the cars originally? In theory if you did use rubber you just keep tightening the bolts till you get the correct door gaps but in practice there is nothing to hold it in position long term so you jack and he car up or drive down the road and nothing  fits.  Use solid spacers with a sealant or something above and below to stop corrosion and take up any gaps.  There have been many posts in the past on this.

[heraldcoupe]

Just to clarify what's meant by solid spacers. The factory fitted body mounting pads made of rubber impregnated fabric, harder than the modern rubber pads, softer than solid metal spacers. The material is still widely available, pads can be bought in slightly larger sizes than original,

Cheers,
Bill.

[midgeman]

1341 wrote:

Having spent months getting a convertible to fit properly there could be many different things that you will need to do. If you just have a gap too large at the top rear of a door you may just need to raise the rear body section. Leave the furthest forward mounting tight and pack the remainder on that side progressively more as you work back. I doubt however that it will be that simple! What work have you actually done to the car, has it had the body off or are you just replacing the doors?  If you post some pictures that would be a great help.  

Good luck

I have the opposite problem with the Rear of the door at the Top to close to the Rear body But I was under the impression that adding spacers to the rearmost side mounting would increase the gap NOT make it wider AM I WRONG ? as I cannot get enough gap.

The body on my car has not been off although I did remove the spacers in certain areas when I fitted new captive plates and bolts.

[Stodders]

Hi Midgeman, if you leave the front mount of the rear section alone and just add spacers to the next one along (in front of the rear wheel) you should get a slight opening of the gap at the top of the door.  You will also get a slight lift of the whole wing which will affect the trim and swage line alignment. Problem with this is that you may then need to lower the door which will then close the gap again.  The mount that seems to make most difference to the door gap however is in the boot (under the rear light). If you add spacers here it will definitely close up the gap - and vice versa. If yours is a convertible just try pushing down on the rear wing.  On most cars you will see the gap open slightly . Some people do add an additional mounting at the front of the rear boot outrigger like I believe was on the 948 chassis  try to overcome this but I don't know how effective it is.

[Paudman]

heraldcoupe wrote:

The factory fitted body mounting pads made of rubber impregnated fabric, harder than the modern rubber pads, softer than solid metal spacers. The material is still widely available, pads can be bought in slightly larger sizes than original,

Cheers,
Bill.

I had meant to get some from you at Stafford... but got sidetracked.
I've spoken to a supplier about getting them remade in polyurethane-type material; similar to, or harder than, red polybushes but he told me last weekend that he's been very busy and hasn't looked into it yet. The black rubber ones compress too much and make adjustment more difficult than it should be.

[Matt306]

heraldcoupe wrote:

Just to clarify what's meant by solid spacers. The factory fitted body mounting pads made of rubber impregnated fabric, harder than the modern rubber pads, softer than solid metal spacers. The material is still widely available, pads can be bought in slightly larger sizes than original,

Cheers,
Bill.

Bill do you have them on your site?_

[heraldcoupe]

2487 wrote:

Bill do you have them on your site?_

They're not listed at the moment. Because of the larger diameter, I'm happier selling them face-to-face so I can go through the pros & cons. Right now I only have a handful in stock, not enough for a full car set.

Following on from Colin's comment, making them in hard polyurethane is quite feasible, though I'm not the manufacturer he'd spoken to about making them. My own tooling is usually produced from handmade patterns, with moulds made from silicone rubber. These would probably be better made from hard tooling cut by milling and/or lathe turning, not something I would be doing in-house,

Cheers,
Bill.

[midgeman]

1341 wrote:

Hi Midgeman, if you leave the front mount of the rear section alone and just add spacers to the next one along (in front of the rear wheel) you should get a slight opening of the gap at the top of the door.  You will also get a slight lift of the whole wing which will affect the trim and swage line alignment. Problem with this is that you may then need to lower the door which will then close the gap again.  The mount that seems to make most difference to the door gap however is in the boot (under the rear light). If you add spacers here it will definitely close up the gap - and vice versa. If yours is a convertible just try pushing down on the rear wing.  On most cars you will see the gap open slightly . Some people do add an additional mounting at the front of the rear boot outrigger like I believe was on the 948 chassis  try to overcome this but I don't know how effective it is.

Ok thanks for the reply I will have a look at the boot spacers the weekend.

I do know that I replaced them with the thick rubber ones (no metal spacers here)so it could be that but I have already got IMO to many spacers under the rear side location looks like getting the tank out again to get at the bolt heads AH WELL.

[Matt306]

2580 wrote:

Ok thanks for the reply I will have a look at the boot spacers the weekend.

I do know that I replaced them with the thick rubber ones (no metal spacers here)so it could be that but I have already got IMO to many spacers under the rear side location looks like getting the tank out again to get at the bolt heads AH WELL.

Midgeman that sounds like it will close a gap at the top not at the bottom which is what Stodders has. I have the gap at the top and wouldnt have thought to pack the rear outrigger, so I will try on my return.
I might take of the tub and make the holes in the mounting points a bit bigger to allow for more movement.
I brought 20 M8 penny washers from Ebay!

[dar]

cut a slot in the washer so you can push them in without taking the boult out all the time, if you use more than one washer turn them so the slot is in a diffrent place .

[Pete Lewis]

easy to cut canvass rubber washers from thick truck mugflaps with a hole saw.    el cheapo .

in general its a solid washer on the front baulkhead inner mount and the two on diff Xmember.

all others were 1 rubber pad with metal packer washers to correct heights  certainly not multiple rubbers .

we made a nice flat to drawing chassis and fitted a wibbly wonky 48 year old body and inplaces its  packed out by around 25mm
so use as much or as many solid packers,, so long as the chasiss doesnt stick out under the cills  . Ha !


its also worth earth bonding the body sections together and to the chassis  on rebuilding.  

Pete

[midgeman]

A BIG THANK YOU Stodders for the info as described below: took out the Petrol Tank tonight removed the bolts and discarded the thick rubber washers between the Boot floor and outrigger and hey presto I seem to have enough gap at the top edge of the door without it catching on the new paint (well at least while the car is stationery) how it fairs when it is on the road with body flex remains to be seen.

Cheers

Alan.  :)

***Hi Midgeman, if you leave the front mount of the rear section alone and just add spacers to the next one along (in front of the rear wheel) you should get a slight opening of the gap at the top of the door.  You will also get a slight lift of the whole wing which will affect the trim and swage line alignment. Problem with this is that you may then need to lower the door which will then close the gap again.  The mount that seems to make most difference to the door gap however is in the boot (under the rear light). If you add spacers here it will definitely close up the gap - and vice versa. If yours is a convertible just try pushing down on the rear wing.  On most cars you will see the gap open slightly . Some people do add an additional mounting at the front of the rear boot outrigger like I believe was on the 948 chassis  try to overcome this but I don't know how effective it is.***

[Matt306]

OK back home from holiday and time to have a fiddle.
I have inserted a couple more washers under the front bulkhead. I still have the quarter light catching on the window but will shut.

You can see how many washers i have used on the rear outrigger.... Anything I am doing wrong here, i suspect a couple more washer will do it.




You will also note the bonnet gap is wide but i dont have any more adjustment on the bonnet rod.

[dar]

looks like the quater light needs moveing going by the top off doorskin, the q light looks like its on an angle, back end tilted up u should not need that amount of washers ,i would start againe ,but it is hard to tell from photos

[Goody]

Haveing just going through this, (though mine fit OK) I am not the expert but,  It looks to me your first problem is the bulkhead,  Is it correct on the frame, not too far back or forward?  I think it is tilted, high in the front and low in the back.  You might want to put a washer under the rear of the bulkhead just ahead of where the rear tub mates up. Then check the rear tub is has the correct distance between the A & B pillars.   As for the gap between the bonnet and the bulkhead it looks as if the bonnet is too far forward.   Looks as if the wing assbly has not been moved so that leads me to think the bulkhead of on the wrong angle.   If you do move the wing assbly, be sure to loosen all the bolts including the one under the rubber plug top/front of the door.   Hope this helps.  

[Matt306]

The Quarter light does appear tilted forward, i'll adjust.

The bonnet problem i think may be due to the hoop being bent. The car suffered a shunt on the front O/S where i am having the problems, the front of the outrigger had to be pulled out to get it equal with the other side. I am thinking perhaps the hoop U bend near to the bonnet attachment is narrowed due to the and this would mean the bonnet is pulled forward.

As to the rear who knows! I'll try to get some measurements.

[Matt306]

Adjusted the quarter light. I now have a gap as shown, which I am happy with so don't think the door needs moving forward. I took a couple of washers from under the bulkhead too.

I have no more adjustment on the body to move it.

I need to close that gap at the top, of the B post and door. The bottom is fine. I am going to take out the rubber washers from the tub mounts. Clearly the amount of spacers on top of the rear out rigger is getting daft!

I am concerned that out riggers are in the wrong place. The ones which were on there on arrival were badly patched and worn so i couldn't use them as a reference.

  
  


Ideas are really appreciated.

[heraldcoupe]

The door looks like it's mounted low at the front, the top front edge should be at the same height as the top of the bulkhead.

What is your spacing and alignment like at the two fixings through the rear axle tunnel? There should be a single rubber or rubber/fabric spacer under the body at each of these points, and the bolts should sit fairly central in the holes. There is a floating captive plate, but things shouldn't move too far from here, extremes of movement will give a hint to how well centred the rear shell is.

Cheers,
Bill.