RBRR 2021 - the feedback thread

[mole42]

1 hour ago, McJim said:

As regard to the use of Gartcosh, I live quite close to it and know this area extremely well.

So while a social club may seem alien to some of you Southerners, Gartcosh represents a piece of our industrial past when we actually made big things and a culture that is slowly disappearing - just like our petrol cars.

Jim.

Agreed!

[Radders]

This was my sixth now and I thought it was a great RBRR.

Glencoe is still a stunning place to be no matter what the weather and i'm still amazed that some crews miss this bit out and still go back down the A9. Still, it's their loss, so it's up to them.

Liked all the other controls including Gartcosh. It's close to the motorway, easy to find and plenty of parking. Part of the RBRR is seeing places you wouldn't normally see and I'd rather go here than a motorway service area.

The Sunday afternoon was a lot more relaxed with plenty of catch up time if required. Much better than 2018 when we all found ourselves heading to Northamptonshire at five in the evening! 

My only complaint was that certain slower drivers wouldn't move over to let the more powerful cars past. There must have about four of us in big saloons that were held up by a small chassis Triumph on Saturday morning that would just not move over. In the end we all  stopped for a coffee just so we'd have a clear road again after. 

As a footnote, I wont be booking the Novotel again either. 20 minutes to book in on Sunday night and no cups to get a coffee, no fresh orange juice and even running out of certain breakfast items on the Monday morning. Shambolic! 

A brilliant event though and well done to all of the committee, marshals' and helpers etc that made it happen. Looking forward to the next one! 

 

 

[SaffronGary]

Really enjoyed this years RBRR, previously have only done the 2016. During that one we didn’t use sat nav, worried too much about a wheel bearing noise in Scotland.  We had two drivers and through inexperience of such a drive we struggled during the Welsh parts and played catch up thereafter. This event though in a pi was excellent, it’s what the car was made for. The route was spot on, no complaints about any of the control stops (although having worked at Logan Morrison’s garage a few years ago, I miss that one.) I spoke with Jim and he mentioned that Gartcosh next time could be the new pie stop! That would work there with no problem. Plenty of room.

One thing though, would it be possible to perhaps allow some of the further afield participants to use a Zoom type meeting for the drivers briefing? I know we did not have to attend at Gaydon but felt we should. It’s a long drive for essentially a couple of hours. 

Event itself? Brilliant! Organisers get full marks again!

Team 95 Gaz Guzzlers

[Nick Jones]

Not a runner since 2008, but re the "mechanical snowflake" thing, or as I prefer, the common cause of getting all the cars round the route, I have a couple of thoughts.

One is to have a sweeper crew in a van or even an estate carrying a selection of basic tools and spares and a couple of mechanically competent persons to apply them.  I suspect volunteers wouldn't be a problem (doing the whole run might be to big an ask - shifts could be arranged!) but actual expenses payable from entries.

Alternatively or as well, have a network of local contacts.  There are quite a few of us dotted around the country with tools, expertise and assorted spares (and who also know others locally with more spares), who would likely to be happy to be "on call" for a few hours as the run passes by.  For example, a TR4 succumbed to alternator failure at Haynes on Sunday. Haynes is 15 minutes from me and I have various alternators..... but I knew nothing of it until too late.

Nick

Edit: Re organisation at controls, it is my ambition to be a bit more organised next time.  And maybe have a gazebo or at least a big brolly.  In my defence, I don't recall having so many arrive in such a short time before.........

Edited October 5, 2021 by Nick Jones

[PeteStupps]

37 minutes ago, Radders said:

There must have about four of us in big saloons that were held up by a small chassis Triumph on Saturday morning that would just not move over

Our Spitfire was also held up by a very 'careful' small-chassis driver on Sunday,  it wasn't just the saloons affected! I think they were holding up a cycling vicar at one point.

[Roger Keys]

49 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

Not a runner since 2008, but re the "mechanical snowflake" thing, or as I prefer, the common cause of getting all the cars round the route, I have a couple of thoughts.

One is to have a sweeper crew in a van or even an estate carrying a selection of basic tools and spares and a couple of mechanically competent persons to apply them.  I suspect volunteers wouldn't be a problem (doing the whole run might be to big an ask - shifts could be arranged!) but actual expenses payable from entries.

Alternatively or as well, have a network of local contacts.  There are quite a few of us dotted around the country with tools, expertise and assorted spares (and who also know others locally with more spares), who would likely to be happy to be "on call" for a few hours as the run passes by.  For example, a TR4 succumbed to alternator failure at Haynes on Sunday. Haynes is 15 minutes from me and I have various alternators..... but I knew nothing of it until too late.

Nick

Edit: Re organisation at controls, it is my ambition to be a bit more organised next time.  And maybe have a gazebo or at least a big brolly.  In my defence, I don't recall having so many arrive in such a short time before.........

What you suggest has merit, but my concern would be that people would then think that the sweeper is there to sort stuff out for people and so they would be less prepared and less able to try and fix any issues thus exacerbating the issue Jason raises in his post.

I think that a more forceful emphasis of "be prepared and have at least one mechanically capable person on the crew" would potentially yeild a better result.

Sadly, if you allow people to believe that someone will bail them out, then they will prepare (or not) accordingly.

As a chap i employ on an occasional basis said, if you motivate people to do the wrong thing, they will. 

[Nick Jones]

2 minutes ago, roger keys said:

I think that a more forceful emphasis of "be prepared and have at least one mechanically capable person on the crew" would potentially yeild a better result.

I agree actually.  However, what we tend to forget as highly experienced, mechanically competent people, is that not all Triumph owners have the benefit a lifetime experience and what seems obvious/trivial to us is a mystery to them.

Nick 

[Pete PiEst]

Excellent event as always - the time and dedication of the organisers is epic !

I think this was my 7th or 8th and they all have a different feel and vibe - this one was more relaxed on the timings which made the whole more relaxed too.

In the past I've caught up slow drivers who didn't understand the concept of pulling over.

The cars are all knocking on (like the drivers!) and if you think that it will breeze round because it's had a couple of runs to the shops then you're wrong. They need to go out for few 150+ mile shake downs before the event.

The support and help you get from the other crews is fantsatic should something happen BUT it is down to you to KNOW your car ! If you leave all that stuff to a man that does then you may need to ask yourself "is this the event for me?"

The idea of a broom wagon doesn't fly with me - what next a chauffeured motor home with a trailer so you can have a comfy nights sleep ??

The drivers meeting isn't people getting up at the front and letting their lips flap in the breeze for entertainment value, there are words of wisdom in there like "if a car comes up behind you it's obviously going faster so just pull over and let them go" and "don't put the new spare in a box fit it and take the old one as a spare". Drink water horse comes to mind.

Would be nice to finish at the hotel and have a bar that stays open as long as people want - probably a bit of an ask to get all those who want to stay booked in but hey it's a wish list !

We could always stick a couple of these round the back of decent pub 😂 ??

[Radders]

5 hours ago, Pete PiEst said:

Excellent event as always - the time and dedication of the organisers is epic !

I think this was my 7th or 8th and they all have a different feel and vibe - this one was more relaxed on the timings which made the whole more relaxed too.

In the past I've caught up slow drivers who didn't understand the concept of pulling over.

The cars are all knocking on (like the drivers!) and if you think that it will breeze round because it's had a couple of runs to the shops then you're wrong. They need to go out for few 150+ mile shake downs before the event.

The support and help you get from the other crews is fantsatic should something happen BUT it is down to you to KNOW your car ! If you leave all that stuff to a man that does then you may need to ask yourself "is this the event for me?"

The idea of a broom wagon doesn't fly with me - what next a chauffeured motor home with a trailer so you can have a comfy nights sleep ??

The drivers meeting isn't people getting up at the front and letting their lips flap in the breeze for entertainment value, there are words of wisdom in there like "if a car comes up behind you it's obviously going faster so just pull over and let them go" and "don't put the new spare in a box fit it and take the old one as a spare". Drink water horse comes to mind.

Would be nice to finish at the hotel and have a bar that stays open as long as people want - probably a bit of an ask to get all those who want to stay booked in but hey it's a wish list !

We could always stick a couple of these round the back of decent pub 😂 ??

 

Good post Peter! I agree with everything you've said. 

I would also suggest: If you're going to do a RBRR for the first time, do a C2C first as a training event. Because if you don't like being awake and driving all night for one night, you certainly aint gonna enjoy doing it for two! 🙂  

Edited October 6, 2021 by Radders

[Alex]

I like the idea about a motor home…..🤔

[RobPearce]

9 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

I agree actually.  However, what we tend to forget as highly experienced, mechanically competent people, is that not all Triumph owners have the benefit a lifetime experience and what seems obvious/trivial to us is a mystery to them.

Sure, but the important thing about Roger's point is to stress "mechanically competent", not "Triumph expert". If you have a guy (or gal) on your crew who can wield a spanner, somebody in another crew can point out where to wield it.

[Slimboyfat]

All good from team Courier/GT6. Sure we had a few problems, but overall one of the best RBRR's.

Perhaps it is best summed up by the experience of our new crew member Beckie, who despite our multiple stopages to fix this, that, and the other on the first night ended the event full of enthusiasm. Last time we spoke she was even contemplating buying a Triumph, and joining CT ready for the next run. It might have been post match euphoria, but it was great to hear from a previously not to interested in classics, and car clubs sort.   

[andy5]

Team 85, we have only good things to say about this RBRR, even the eggs at Lands End made us smile.

A big thank you to the organisers & marshals the effort you all put in is really appreciated. Every team seemed happy at the stops, you all made the event very enjoyable.

We developed a gearbox issue on the way down from JoG, but it survived, time for a re-build. 

We found fuel when we needed it and spent the time driving back up from Lands End planning the mods we need for the next RBRR. Both my sons now want a big saloon to do the event next time, 3 of us in a Stag was a bit tight.

We used Rallymaplive.com for our family and friends to follow us around the route, they all said it worked well and could see our progress around the route.  

    

[Matt306]

I loved the start... although couldnt hear the driver briefing at the start even with megaphone.

55miles later I lost my gearbox oil due to a defective seal. I had no other seal (why would you), luckily I stopped and plumes of smoke told me my run was over, the car still goes into gear and drives, i am just flushing the bits out. I had no option but to withdraw. 

A Whatsapp for users to log into to send messages as well as the  organisers one may help for quick circulation of SOS.

Sometimes things just fox us, and with tiredness sometimes pulling out is the best option.  

 

[Roger Keys]

I’ve done a fair few of these, and, as a result have a few opinions I guess!

 

Some random thoughts follow, if a bit long winded. Apologies in advance.

 

As always, a big thanks to Tim, Jason and the rest of the team for organising the event. I don’t think one can underestimate the effort involved to pull all this together.

One welcome change, is that the pace of the event seems to have dropped off a touch, I assume as a result of a bit less mileage. I definitely prefer it that way. A bit more like some rbrr in the dim and distant past. So more time for a chin wag, or if you need to, fix cars, whilst not then dropping so far behind that you are hardly in the event any more. Had I realised this I would have talked (even) more! I really hope we stick with this format.

 

Jason mentions in his point 5, about the “well meaning” chap trying to create an extra stop. Id say he is not well meaning at all. Indeed he is a menace! I for one will be extremely unhappy if his actions jeopardise the event, and as Jason hints, may be ban anyone that goes there. Id suggest, just do that, ban them. Call it out for what it is. Be blunt.

 

I see that the returning of road books has cropped a few times already. I suspect this has been made worse by the more relaxed timings, leading to bigger gatherings at stops. Its not a race, so shouldn’t really matter if it takes 5 minutes longer to get your book back. But………..

 

At Skiach, there was a veritable scrum collecting books, followed by people running back to cars and shooting off. Except that, being one of the later books, almost immediately, I found myself stuck in a convoy of those cars all toodling along at 45- 50mph. I don’t speak for everyone, but I’ve come all this way to drive some great roads with minimal traffic, ambling isn’t what I’m here for. But if you are ambling, what was the mad rush for books all about?

 

Which, sadly, brings us to driving standards. It was brought up ( by Dale?) at the drivers meeting. If you want to amble, much as I don’t understand, that’s fine, but please, please, show some courtesy to other road users. If the road is empty ahead and there are 15 cars behind you, guess what? You are holding them up. Triumphs or otherwise. Pull over, or at least indicate left and slow down and make it easy to pass. If you are in the convoy, leave space for someone to overtake you and drop back in, in front of you.

Sadly, I had many unnecessarily hold me up, but only one actually make an effort to let me past. Blue saloon, MK2, h reg, in Wales. 3 times! Thank you.

My initial thoughts are, again emphasise this in the literature, drivers meeting etc. But then, the kind of mindset that knowingly holds up a queue of cars for mile after mile, isn’t likely to take much notice of any suggestions to contrary. I don’t know what the answer is to this. How do you fix ignorance?

 

Back to road books and stops, id echo RobPearce about Okehampton. I’m not really sure what the point of it actually is? Does the TAP make this necessary? I don’t know. Back in the 90’s I recall, we did Gordano then lands end. Nothing in between. Upside was, if you cracked on, you could get to lands end nice and early and get your head down for some stationary sleep.

 

So on to mechanical snowflakery.

There was a post on the RBRR Banter facebook page from someone who had no mechanical knowledge who though they would like to take part in the future. The replies were mostly, don’t worry, plenty of people can help you. I actually think this was poor advice.

The event is tough on both the drivers and the car. The car needs to be prepped properly, and I’m firmly of the view, that at least one person needs to have a degree of mechanical competence. The message should be, you are responsible for you and your car. Its your responsibility to get round.

The club/organising team are enablers to allow it happen. Its NOT their responsibility to get you round.

Relying on others to cover for your lack of prep or competence really isn’t on, nor fair on those who are.

I’m reminded of a car on a border raiders run. Ok, not as intense as rbrr, but still 2 days driving in some remote locations. Come across a spitfire with bonnet up with fuel issues. The first and obvious problem was the fuel hoses. Cracked, split and barely held on with the wrong, oversize clips. I mean, really??? This is basic stuff. Even the most cursory examination would have raised this. You cant help people that wont help themselves.

 

My view, though possibly unpopular, is that the organisers shouldn’t be attempting to assist people with ever more "stuff". I think the more that’s done, the more will be expected. Never mind the additional workload on the organisers.

Instead, I think publishing as much data on failures on this run, and previous where it exists, and circulating it to entrants would yield a better result.

There is no doubt that poor quality new parts will figure in the list. (stop buying cheap U/J's people!) The counter to that is to be using the car, regularly, ahead of the event. My stag has done over 5k miles prior to RBRR this year. Apart from greasing the wiper motor, no meddling was done immediately prior to the event.

 

To summarise, I don’t think anything about the event itself needs changing. It was great as it was.

The only thing I would change is the messaging, i.e., Prep, both car and driver, mechanical competence and driver standards. And repeat that message over and over. And maybe make attendance at drivers meet mandatory?

If it puts a few people off, so be it. Far better id suggest to have 90 cars start and 90 finish than 110 start and 20 fail.

 

Sign me up for the next one 😊

[Pete PiEst]

The RBRR is a driving event and I can't understand why those that choose to drive slower don't allow those that choose to go faster past them - I get the feeling that if they were in a modern on a motorway they'd be glued to the middle lane regardless of traffic conditions etc.

A lot of good points in the previous post ... I like Steve's idea of the C2C as a qualifying event before the RBRR.

1, Complusory attendance at the drivers meeting by at least one crew member

2, 20 questions about your chosen model

3, Find the fault on a non starter - for reallistic simulation to be done outside in a darkened tent whilst being sprayed with cold water.

4, Do the hands look like they've ever used a spanner?

5, Then the all important fingernail test - small sample taken and it must contain a mixture of at least 2 out of 4 - Oil, grease, swarf, paint or blood ... if none present you're shown the door ??

 

 

[yorkshire_spam]

I know this isn't going to be popular, but I think that the "qualifying event" idea will just make the event and the club seem more elitist and a bigger closed shop clique.

Our first major event was the 2014 RBRR which we completed. Since then we've done a couple of 10CR, some border raiders and attempted another RBRR. If we'd been excluded from the 2014 RBRR due to not having completed a qualifying event it's likely we wouldn't have bothered or done the other events or been club members. Just my opinion.

[Horace]

Completely agree with York’s Spam. Just makes it look like you’re demanding you need to be in the know to enter.  Horrible idea and perpetuates the slightly cliquey feeling I had on my first RBRR in 2014 at the Plough.  I felt this year there was a real feeling of new blood and open friendliness.  Clubs die when they look inwards….

Bob

[Horace]

Another option may be to pair up experienced people with novices (on a voluntary basis).  Not only does it help technically it also promotes friendliness and combats any tendency to cliquiness. They could liaise pre event, give tips on the event, spares to carry etc. In 2016 I did it with a colleague from work in his 20s.  He was dead keen, loved old cars and the whole idea but no way would he have done it without someone who knew a bit about the car we were in. It’s that sort of person we need to encourage as the future. He still talks about our adventure today and when family allows he’s going to get spitfire (we broke down in Scotland but got going again to finish).  
 

A lot of people already appear to do this event with friends and form convoys.  Being in a team of two or more would be good fun.  After all, any idiot wants to do this has a lot in common with the the other idiots taking part!

Bob

 

 

[Howard]

Driving right through a night takes some getting used to which is why I think you need to get experience before the RBRR.

IMHO it doesn't need to be a formal event like the C2C but that should be strongly recommended.

My concern is it would only take one serious accident for the MSA to ban it in its current format.

[GT6DavidMK1]

50 minutes ago, Horace said:

Another option may be to pair up experienced people with novices. 

I have always made sure my co-driver is someone I know very well, as when your with someone for 48 hours you don't want friction within the car, and getting on with your crew is a key element of driving 48 hours! if you want to survive a RBRR!!

 

As for this RBRR is was excellent, being my 5th RBRR, found this one a more relaxed and enjoyed just as much as the past RBRR, My co-driver Jonathan Ingram, was his first time and he really enjoyed it, (though it helps he loves driving) Yes does help to have experience of previous RBRR, My first RBRR 2008, I packed the boot with every thing, think even the kitchen sink 🤣 last 4 RBRR's basic stuff in the boot, the PI had the usual prep work check brakes, oil/filter change, tyre check (2 replaced) and 3 long journeys to events to check any other possible problems, pad and discs where fitted the week before. Preparation is the key to completing a RBRR. though some things you can't  anticipate (blown head gasket for example).

 

As for this qualifying event!! (Rubbish) it's a event for every Club member who wishes to take part and the raising money for a worth while charity!! You are not force to take part. Is all part of the adventure whether you a oldie or a newbie.

If an't broke, don't fix it 😉 I don’t think anything about the event itself needs changing. It was great as it was.(sorry Roger I nicked your quote)🤣😂

 

[Horace]

Sorry, should have made my point clearer.  I meant pairing cars not drivers and co drivers.  Just knowing another car is with you helps you feel less of a novice and gives some reassurance that you are not on your own if something goes wrong. It may also add an element of safety to the event as well.  If you have an accident or an off or don’t turn up at a control someone else will know quite quickly.  I don’t think it should be imposed just some crews could volunteer and those interested could pair up.  The drivers meeting could be a meet up for them.  Perhaps the Club could recommend first timers to do this and then put them in touch with someone who has volunteered.  If they are local to each other they could meet up for a practice or help with preparation…. After all the spirit of the event is all for one and one for all.  Finally, it should be made clear your buddy car is there to help only if possible not hang around for recovery with you if it becomes clear it’s a very long fix or a no hoper…

Bob

[RobPearce]

17 minutes ago, GT6DavidMK1 said:

I have always made sure my co-driver is someone I know very well, as when your with someone for 48 hours you don't want friction within the car, and getting on with your crew is a key element of driving 48 hours!

Very true! On more than one RBRR I've chosen a co-driver purely on the grounds that we get on well, without any consideration of whether s/he is a particularly good driver. Those have generally been the better ones.

However, I read Horace's pairing up / mentoring idea as more of a pre-event pairing of teams - so the novice teams get introduced to an experience team to get to know them as a friendly face and guide in the event of trouble.

And I see Horace has clarified what he actually meant.

[Jason]

This is all good debate and opinion, thank you. The issue about the Club and/or the RBRR displaying "cliquiness" makes me smile, we are a clique and everyone in the club is in that clique, the RBRR is a clique within a clique. All that cliquing makes me think about UJs!

It's true that as a newbie it's daunting BUT you've gotta make yourself known, get involved and to a certain degree, become the clique - when I run on the RBRR I do it with friends but I don't mind if anyone else tags along, they are just friends I don't know yet 🙂 

I'm never going to prevent newbies running with us - we can all learn new stuff from new people but to a certain degree, they need to 'earn' their stripes. For instance, I will help anyone I can, for my mates I will stop and get stuck in as I know their issues will have not been through lack of prep (if they are, I will take the mickey). If it's a newbie with a schoolboy error, I might not make myself late but I'll definatley help, offer advice, spares, etc.

If I were a newbie, and I have been, I wouldn't expect anything less - it's why I ended up helping organise these things as I wanted to be of value and I didn't want things like the RBRR to fail. 

So I don't really accept the negative overtones of the word "clique" because anyone can get in, they just have to be decent like minded people. OK, so there are always going to be the ego maniacs who just want to control what you do or who try and make some sort of benefit (kudos, reputation, money) out of being in the club - they will always be on the fringes. I don't like them and they probably already know that - so they can stay on the outside. Anyone else, welcome in! If you're a newbie reading this I do hope you realise you're most welcome. The friendship groups in CT are string and some of the trust and the bonds have been forged over many years and many thousands of miles, get involved now and you too might last the same thousands of miles 🙂 

[nmarston]

Quick review of my 5th RBR - as ever great fun and thanks to all who organise it and to those and man the controls. New things from Nigel A and the team which all worked for me.  Falls of Shin - super stop, great bogs, coffee OK, a nice spot that wasn't hard to find. Gartkosh - weird but easy to get to, bogs available, and I know venues for controls not easy to find. Run through Wales - did everyone else cheat and use satnav ? I followed Mr A's rather circuitous  route and never had a Triumph on my tail for the first time ever - and I know there's quicker ways from Gledrid to Monmouth than those windy roads.  Hmmm - enjoyed the solitude though. Lands End - no queue for breakfast and snappy service thank God - must be new management. Sparkford - nice and convenient. Looked very interesting for a future trip out. Last leg - well done Nigel - nice and simple which is what I like when knackered - unlike Turweston and the horrid cross country wend it entailed last time out. All in all - great as ever - thanks to all and see you in two years time.

Ps no more Westonzoylands or Turwestons please        

Cheers  -Nick and James Team 105