Selling V5, plates and tags

[MarshallandMia]

Hello and thank you for reading. I purchased a heavily perished Spitfire Mk 2 to break for parts.  However, it did come with a V5C and reg plates and also has the original matching number plates on the passenger side that I've now removed.  I'd like to sell them all together, and I have had some interest, but I have no idea as to the legality or an asking price. Any help would be appreciated.  

[RobPearce]

If the car has been broken, the law requires that you inform DVLA by returning the V5 to them with the relevant section filled in for scrappage. There is no value to a V5 without the original car other than for illegal activity (such as ringing).

[Clive]

Not legal to sell a cars identity without the car.

[MarshallandMia]

Haha, okay, well that clears that up.  I thought I had read somewhere about people buying a registration, and thought maybe the same could be done in this case for someone building a car basically from scratch.  I'm certainly not trying to do anything illegal!

[Clive]

10 minutes ago, MarshallandMia said:

Haha, okay, well that clears that up.  I thought I had read somewhere about people buying a registration, and thought maybe the same could be done in this case for someone building a car basically from scratch.  I'm certainly not trying to do anything illegal!

If a car is built from scratch, or used parts from a variety of cars, there is a DVLA process for getting a registration involving inspections etc. 

What happens in the murkier parts of society, well, who knows. Built up car, or one liberated from somebodies garage? 

[thescrapman]

But if the registration goes with an attached chassis, then for a Triumph Spitfire, that is OK, as that is the part of the car that relates to the identity.

And you have a chassis. 

Cheers Colin

[RobPearce]

1 hour ago, thescrapman said:

as that is the part of the car that relates to the identity.

No, not any more. The chassis alone falls a fair way short of the number of points required to retain identity.

You can't legally sell a V5. It is not an entity in its own right, it is merely a certificate of identity and responsibility for a vehicle registered with DVLA. As soon as that car ceases to exist (meaning the chassis, body, and major mechanical parts are no longer united at least in ownership if not physically) then the corresponding V5 no longer has legal standing and must, legally, be returned to the issuing authority (DVLA) for them to remove the vehicle from their records (or mark it as destroyed). The bit of paper becomes worthless at best, fraudulent if you try to use it for anything.

[Colin Caygill]

If a bloke had a stash of spitfire parts and came across a set of identity tags and a log book and this bloke then built up a car, he's technically broken the law on one hand but at least he's got another Spitfire on the road. I personally wouldn't see anything wrong with it. All cars are just a collection  of parts. The paperwork is just that. Paperwork. Just my opinion.

[yorkshire_spam]

The problem I have is not so much that people selling paperwork are technically doing so illegally (although I wouldn't be comfortable doing that), but that it enables other serious crime like ringing of stolen classic cars. I think I get particularly tetchy about this because of my history in the Land Rover scene, where this sort of thing is common place and the theft of such vehicles is (was?) a serious issue for owners.

If you had a stash of spitfire parts and used it to build a car, if you still had the VIN plate (or even just the number) you could legitimately apply for an identity from the DVLA. 

[Colin Caygill]

Yes, fair point. I've lived a sheltered life. Never had anything pinched! 

[PeteStupps]

21 hours ago, RobPearce said:

No, not any more. The chassis alone falls a fair way short of the number of points required to retain identity.

You can't legally sell a V5. It is not an entity in its own right, it is merely a certificate of identity and responsibility for a vehicle registered with DVLA. As soon as that car ceases to exist (meaning the chassis, body, and major mechanical parts are no longer united at least in ownership if not physically) then the corresponding V5 no longer has legal standing and must, legally, be returned to the issuing authority (DVLA) for them to remove the vehicle from their records (or mark it as destroyed). The bit of paper becomes worthless at best, fraudulent if you try to use it for anything.

I didn't know this Rob, that's useful info. I was under the impression that Colin was correct and the chassis alone was sufficient. Is that not still the case if you use original spec parts, e.g. a Spitfire body and engine?

[RobPearce]

1 hour ago, PeteStupps said:

I didn't know this Rob, that's useful info. I was under the impression that Colin was correct and the chassis alone was sufficient. Is that not still the case if you use original spec parts, e.g. a Spitfire body and engine?

The rules for retaining identity and the rules for being a historic (tax & MOT exempt) car are different. For the latter, you can change anything as long as it's to original (or common period mod) spec. For identity, though, you have to retain several original parts. In fact, you are allowed to replace the chassis (with an original specification replacement) providing you keep "2 other major components from the original vehicle". See https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles

There's also a points system for whether you can retain the original registration on a modified vehicle, at https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles

[thescrapman]

I think it is a bit deceptive. Designed to catch out the unwary.

All the DVLA stuff relates to getting a V5, or recovering a lost one.

For instance it says you can not use any new or replica parts if you wish to put a Classic back on the road.

If you do it will get a Q plate and need type approval.

I don't remember any of that when I last put a classic back on the road that had been off the road for many years.

That was because I had a log book. So all that DVLA stuff is irrelevant.

I didn't need to have any number of points or anything like that. 

[RobPearce]

12 hours ago, thescrapman said:

I think it is a bit deceptive. Designed to catch out the unwary.

No, it's all fairly clear and very reasonable. It's designed to expose the criminal - in particular those who create fake Bugattis and try to sell them as the real thing for vast amounts of money. It only seems excessive for a Spitfire because Spitfires aren't worth enough for criminals to build replicas for passing off.

If you have the V5 in your possession, and if you're putting the car back on the road after a thirty year restoration, then the DVLA aren't likely to send an inspector round to confirm that your suspension and steering are the ones that were fitted at the factory! They certainly didn't inspect mine.

[MarkB]

How does this work for gt6 convertibles, Spit tub on gt6 chassis and running gear? 

[RobPearce]

58 minutes ago, MarkB said:

How does this work for gt6 convertibles, Spit tub on gt6 chassis and running gear? 

That probably comes under "radically altered" - so it's the points system. If you just drop a Spitfire tub onto a GT6 chassis, with its original drivetrain and suspension, then you get either 9 or 16 points (depending on how you interpret the "chassis" section), which means you can retain the identity, no problem. It's the identity of the GT6 that you are retaining, of course.

[MarkB]

Thanks Rob, something I wouldn't mind owning one day, that or a Tr6, got to many cars cars on my plate at the moment.

[MarshallandMia]

On 13/01/2022 at 17:26, Clive said:

If a car is built from scratch, or used parts from a variety of cars, there is a DVLA process for getting a registration involving inspections etc. 

What happens in the murkier parts of society, well, who knows. Built up car, or one liberated from somebodies garage? 

In this case the gentleman liberated an old spitty from an abandoned warehouse set for demolition near his home.  According to him (and the photos confirm it) it had been left largely disassembled and picked over by vandals.  He chased down the owner, whose response was basically 'you can have it but all the documents have been lost', and thus far has not been willing to help secure the necessary paperwork to transfer ownership.  Fast forward to present: this gentleman approached me for some parts he's missing and in the course of conversation explained his situation.  I replied that I have paperwork and tags but no car (essentially), and thought maybe I could help.  It doesn't sound like that's the case, however.  

[Clive]

3 hours ago, MarshallandMia said:

In this case the gentleman liberated an old spitty from an abandoned warehouse set for demolition near his home.  According to him (and the photos confirm it) it had been left largely disassembled and picked over by vandals.  He chased down the owner, whose response was basically 'you can have it but all the documents have been lost', and thus far has not been willing to help secure the necessary paperwork to transfer ownership.  Fast forward to present: this gentleman approached me for some parts he's missing and in the course of conversation explained his situation.  I replied that I have paperwork and tags but no car (essentially), and thought maybe I could help.  It doesn't sound like that's the case, however.  

He needs to find the comission number, or he won't be able to register it.

You can't get a new V5 with just the reg number, unless things have changed.