Historic status

[Dannyb]

I will be going to the post office tomorrow to get my free road tax and get the log book changed to Historic on my 1980 Spitfire.

The dvla shows the production date as Dec 31st. But I have a heritage certificate which says Mar 23rd 1980. Do I need to send that off separately to get that changed or will the post office send it off with the log book to the dvla.

Danny

[RobPearce]

I don't think the DVLA really care about exact production dates. The rules have a calendar year cutoff, so there's no difference between March 23rd and December 31st as far as they're concerned.

[Dannyb]

Thanks Rob.

 

[Matt306]

My very late TR7 is first registered 1982 but Heritage certificate shows production 5th October 1981 so I will probably get free tax next year i think?

 

Its quite a nice date as its my daughters birthdate.

[PeteStupps]

Matt I'm amazed your daughter was born in 1981, you must have settled down very early in life :)

[Dannyb]

All sorted, very easy no problems at the post office.

It's funny that rhe production date 23rd March 1980 is my older sons Birthday, well he was 1 year old then.

Danny

[RCampbell]

So I do not fully understand the current rules for 'historic status' and tax exemption.

My Vitesse 6 is currently 'SORN' while it is being restored, if the original chassis, Body tub, suspension is used but 2 litre engine and gearbox (with overdrive) - same 6 cylinder configuration, does that make it eligible for historic status? or do I need to source a 1600 engine and associated gearbox?

[RobPearce]

That sounds absolutely fine. The 2-litre is a factory fit for a later version of the same model, so it's within the rules.

From a purely practical safety perspective I'd recommend also fitting the larger brakes from a 2L model. That, too, should be entirely fine within the VHI rules.

Note, though, that the VHI rules about modifications apply only to MOT exemption - and you should get the car MOT'd every year regardless because that exemption is idiotic - and not the tax exemption. Even a highly modified vehicle can be tax exempt.

[RCampbell]

8 minutes ago, RobPearce said:

That sounds absolutely fine. The 2-litre is a factory fit for a later version of the same model, so it's within the rules.

From a purely practical safety perspective I'd recommend also fitting the larger brakes from a 2L model. That, too, should be entirely fine within the VHI rules.

Note, though, that the VHI rules about modifications apply only to MOT exemption - and you should get the car MOT'd every year regardless because that exemption is idiotic - and not the tax exemption. Even a highly modified vehicle can be tax exempt.

Ahh that's good to know, I was a bit worried about losing its registration number!

Also, good advice on the brakes, I will do that.

I am happy to get an MOT each year.

Edited September 3, 2021 by RCampbell

[RobPearce]

1 hour ago, RCampbell said:

I was a bit worried about losing its registration number!

The loss of identity issue is a different rule set again! There's a complex point scoring system whereby if you replace too many things in one go then it becomes a different car. In essence, though, as long as you retain the chassis and steering, or change things one at a time with some usage in between, you should be OK. My Spitfire hasn't lost its identity despite an engine, gearbox and diff upgrade, GT6 front brakes, full body rebuild, swing spring conversion... all while it was off road and not even SORN (at the time the DVLA wouldn't SORN a car that hadn't been taxed since that law came in).

[npanne]

To support the answer you already got - this is an extract from the DVLA guidance on what constitutes significant change with regards to historical status:

Engine – alternative cubic capacities of the same basic engine and alternative original equipment engines are not considered a substantial change. If the number of cylinders in an engine is different from the original, it is likely to be, but not necessarily, the case that the current engine is not alternative original equipment.

full doc here : https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/670431/vehicles-of-historical-interest-substantial-change-guidance.pdf

[Ian Perry]

As a bit of a red herring, sorry... 🙂 I used to have a Toledo and (way before they started to become rare, and such sacrilege would be frowned upon now) I converted it to a Sprint drivetrain (and built it as a rally car).

The system at the time for retaining the original registration etc was that each element of the car had a "points value" and you had to achieve a certain score to retain the registration/identity. The scoring system was designed so that you could re-shell the car, but would have to transfer everything else from the original car, to retain the original registration. Alternatively if you kept the shell and (IIRC) the interior trim, you could change the engine, gearbox, back axle, suspension and brakes 🙂 . Obviously by changing to the Sprint drivetrain I was changing pretty much all of that... and as the rally car prep progressed, somehow all the interior came out too!!

 

[Roger Keys]

17 hours ago, Ian Perry said:

As a bit of a red herring, sorry... 🙂 I used to have a Toledo and (way before they started to become rare, and such sacrilege would be frowned upon now) I converted it to a Sprint drivetrain (and built it as a rally car).

The system at the time for retaining the original registration etc was that each element of the car had a "points value" and you had to achieve a certain score to retain the registration/identity. The scoring system was designed so that you could re-shell the car, but would have to transfer everything else from the original car, to retain the original registration. Alternatively if you kept the shell and (IIRC) the interior trim, you could change the engine, gearbox, back axle, suspension and brakes 🙂 . Obviously by changing to the Sprint drivetrain I was changing pretty much all of that... and as the rally car prep progressed, somehow all the interior came out too!!

 

The points system is still the same and has never changed. And nothing to do with tax or MOT exemption status.

However, there is no way that you can "reshell" a car unless it is a "NEW" shell, and be proven to be so. You lose too many points, and the DVLA's position on this is clear, if you do so, you have destroyed the identity of the car.

Extract from DVLA website:

Keep the original registration number

Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame.

Part	Points
Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer)	5
Suspension (front and back) - original	2
Axles (both) - original	2
Transmission - original	2
Steering assembly - original	2
Engine - original	1

 

[Ian Perry]

Hi Roger,

That's certainly different from my recollection - one of the things that stuck in my mind about the rules *at that time* was the conviction that you COULD re-shell a car, though everything else would have to be original. It seemed to make sense, to me at least!

You may well be right though - there's plenty of wine flowed under the bridge since then!

It's academic though (as far as this conversation is concerned) and I never wanted/needed to re-shell any of my cars, so never put that aspect to the test!  

[Howard]

Many Triumphs as far as I am aware are missing the VIN number stamped onto the bodyshell so there is no way of identifying a body swap on most Tr7's including mine - I know where the number should be but quite simply is not there! Having just had my 7 declared a cat B loss which requires the body shell to be destroyed this is not entirely academic since I was advised it mine could still be changed to a historically significant car next April (when it is 40 years old) & the body "repaired" and the identity maintained. The insurance company rang me after everything was finalised to inform me that this option would remains ! ...

Cheers

Howard

[Roger Keys]

3 hours ago, Ian Perry said:

Hi Roger,

That's certainly different from my recollection - one of the things that stuck in my mind about the rules *at that time* was the conviction that you COULD re-shell a car, though everything else would have to be original. It seemed to make sense, to me at least!

You may well be right though - there's plenty of wine flowed under the bridge since then!

It's academic though (as far as this conversation is concerned) and I never wanted/needed to re-shell any of my cars, so never put that aspect to the test!  

Sadly, i am right. The 8 point rule has remained unchanged since its inception. Plenty of myths about it though.

[Ian Perry]

I wasn't questioning the historic integrity of "the 8 points rule" itself, I remember it coming out. It was the proviso about the bodyshell, if not the original, having to be NEW, that was a more recent amendment.

[Roger Keys]

2 hours ago, Ian Perry said:

I wasn't questioning the historic integrity of "the 8 points rule" itself, I remember it coming out. It was the proviso about the bodyshell, if not the original, having to be NEW, that was a more recent amendment.

But the rule has never been ammended. The only thing that has happened is the DVLA gave clarity on what constitues "destruction of the identity". 

That said, the rule could not allow a shell swap under any resonable interpratation. Now, or in the past.