Well that was a rush!

[Velocita Rosso]

Rather than going back and forth on if`s maybe`s and but`s....it would be better to contact the RBRR sub committee , as invited after every event, to give comments criticisms and suggestions. At this point that committee then discuss between them ,and then make a final decision on such suggestions,for future events. As per any competition then...........`The judges decision will  be final` 

[Rutty]

Quoted from Velocita Rosso-

It was well publicised where the marshals were at Wetherby,we had banners outside the sliding doors and Jane standing outside in pouring rain, shaking a bucket advising where we were inside......and the queue was because everyone arrived early . We were not allowed to open up before checking in time so we collected all the books as they arrived, put them in entry number order and had a rubber stamp to `sign` everyone in....It was quite speedy, and all crews went through in less than one hour.

Marshals take a lot of flak.....even in pouring rain on top of Carter Bar at the witching hour draped in army coveralls 

No one is criticising you or the other marshals at Wetherby as you did a great job but being towards the back of the queue it took us nearly 45 minuets to get through as would be expected with only two marshals and 125 crews. Yes you collected the books as they arrived and had a rubber stamp to speed things up but it was still slow and not speedy. This fact is being echoed by other people on this forum. I brought it up after the last RBRR as you have suggested but you put the same claim forward that it was speedy. It might have felt speedy to yourself as you where busy but being in the queue it felt like an age to get through.  All we are asking for is a few more marshals at the first control so we can get through in 10 to 15 minuets like we do at the other controls. Surely this will help you and spread the work load.

Mark

[Rutty]

 

KEEP IT AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE

Rant over.

Jim.

The ironic part of you quote above against using technology is that technology would simplify the process. I think Colin's idea of using QR codes or barcodes is a very sensible, low cost solution. Yes our cars are from the past but that doesn't mean the way the event is run has to stay in the past.

Mark

[Velocita Rosso]

Quoted from Rutty-

Quoted from Velocita Rosso-

It was well publicised where the marshals were at Wetherby,we had banners outside the sliding doors and Jane standing outside in pouring rain, shaking a bucket advising where we were inside......and the queue was because everyone arrived early . We were not allowed to open up before checking in time so we collected all the books as they arrived, put them in entry number order and had a rubber stamp to `sign` everyone in....It was quite speedy, and all crews went through in less than one hour.

Marshals take a lot of flak.....even in pouring rain on top of Carter Bar at the witching hour draped in army coveralls 

No one is criticising you or the other marshals at Wetherby as you did a great job but being towards the back of the queue it took us nearly 45 minuets to get through as would be expected with only two marshals and 125 crews. Yes you collected the books as they arrived and had a rubber stamp to speed things up but it was still slow and not speedy. This fact is being echoed by other people on this forum. I brought it up after the last RBRR as you have suggested but you put the same claim forward that it was speedy. It might have felt speedy to yourself as you where busy but being in the queue it felt like an age to get through.  All we are asking for is a few more marshals at the first control so we can get through in 10 to 15 minuets like we do at the other controls. Surely this will help you and spread the work load.

Mark

Mark

I can understand the frustrations of waiting in a queue....as I have done in the past...but it isn`t down to me,or anything to do with me, relating the number of marshals used and where they are allocated. I have just done what I`m told to do. The `improvement` comments are down to Tin B and crew,thats why I said....the after the events comments should be invited by them to peruse for future events

....and then its down to them whether they run with new ideas or not

[thescrapman]

Quoted from Rubce-

If GPS tracking is used for logging and so there are no marshals at the stops where crews won't be stopping for fuel etc ie Carter Bar, what stops crews from departing too early? Is there not a risk it becomes too much like a race?

Bruce

 

You will know because you have a time stamp to the second of where the car is and when.

And you say if you arrive early at or depart a control early it is exclusion.

No margin for error that way, and certainly no average 100mph down the A30

[thescrapman]

Quoted from Velocita Rosso-

Quoted from Rutty-

Quoted from Velocita Rosso-

It was well publicised where the marshals were at Wetherby,we had banners outside the sliding doors and Jane standing outside in pouring rain, shaking a bucket advising where we were inside......and the queue was because everyone arrived early . We were not allowed to open up before checking in time so we collected all the books as they arrived, put them in entry number order and had a rubber stamp to `sign` everyone in....It was quite speedy, and all crews went through in less than one hour.

Marshals take a lot of flak.....even in pouring rain on top of Carter Bar at the witching hour draped in army coveralls 

No one is criticising you or the other marshals at Wetherby as you did a great job but being towards the back of the queue it took us nearly 45 minuets to get through as would be expected with only two marshals and 125 crews. Yes you collected the books as they arrived and had a rubber stamp to speed things up but it was still slow and not speedy. This fact is being echoed by other people on this forum. I brought it up after the last RBRR as you have suggested but you put the same claim forward that it was speedy. It might have felt speedy to yourself as you where busy but being in the queue it felt like an age to get through.  All we are asking for is a few more marshals at the first control so we can get through in 10 to 15 minuets like we do at the other controls. Surely this will help you and spread the work load.

Mark

Mark

I can understand the frustrations of waiting in a queue....as I have done in the past...but it isn`t down to me,or anything to do with me, relating the number of marshals used and where they are allocated. I have just done what I`m told to do. The `improvement` comments are down to Tin B and crew,thats why I said....the after the events comments should be invited by them to peruse for future events

....and then its down to them whether they run with new ideas or not

Mike, we are putting in comments after the event, they are after the 2018 event, and before the 2020 event.

And I have suggested the tracking systems in the past, and they have been trialled on previous events.

only difference now is we have much better and vastly cheaper solutions.

[McJim]

I think one or two people are confused, thinking that the RBRR is a rally with all their concerns with timing, early and late arrivals and even exclusion from the event for arriving too early.

I, for one, am not having a "black box" in my car recording my position on the event, so how are you going to "track" me?

If I'm forced into downloading an app, the second I'm out of Knebworth, it'll be turned off.

And how do you track someone and monitor their arrival time at controls if their battery goes dead?

Do you know, in all my years in motorsport, I've never had a pencil and a piece of paper "die" on me.  

Many of the marshals are not in their first flush of youth and may be reluctant to marshal if all this new tech is thrust upon them.  And it's not as though we've volunteers flooding in with offers of assistance.

The RBRR is a reliability run, not a rally, not a round of the World Rally Championship, it doesn't need to go hi-tech, which is part of the charm of the event, two blokes sitting at a table signing roadbooks and recording who has visited the control.  Not the exact second they arrived in the control area but the time they presented their roadbook to them.

And what about connectivity.  It's been a few years since I marshalled at Carter Bar and we had trouble getting a signal, so forget about 5G.  Much of Scotland, for example, doesn't even have 4G.

And after all, Club Triumph doesn't have a great record in introducing new tech to the Club - just look at the Forum.

I know I'm wasting my time writing all this.

It's like having an online argument with total strangers about politics - completely pointless.

But I have the comfort in knowing that the organising committee of the RBRR have the experience and sense not to introduce unnecessary technical problems to the Club's flagship event when there have been no previous difficulties with the existing system other than a slight delay at the first control for early arrivals.

From what I've read here and elsewhere, loads of people arrived early, then some complained that they had to queue and wait to get their roadbooks signed until the opening time for the control had been reached.  

The whole idea of the timed opening of controls is to prevent excessive speed on the event, which it did at Wetherby, so what's the problem - it did what it said on the tin. 

There were no complaints that I'm aware of queueing at any other controls.

Just because the RBRR or the 10CR or the Historic Counties don't go all hi-tech, I wager that the Club will not suffer as a result.

We don't need a "results service" on these events to run them or even enjoy them, which is the primary function in having these types of event to take part in.

No one will be saying at the end on the 2020 RBRR, "Ah, I would have enjoyed the event more if I could have tracked my progress in the car as we drove round."

I enjoy a bit of banter with my friends who marshal, some of whom I don't see from one RBRR to the next.  

Are we going to let an app take that away?

I certainly won't.

Jim.

[RobPearce]

Jim,

You may have had a point when you started but now you're just being a Luddite. Technology is there to help us, to make our lives easier. You're the one being confused because you've forgotten that and you think technology is evil. It really isn't.

Anyway, nothing's going to change for next year, there will still be a shortage of marshals because we'll still expect them to stand out in the pouring rain and freezing cold in the middle of nowhere and sign paper books by hand. And you'll be happy. Unlike the marshals.

[McJim]

Rob,

Hardly a Luddite.

I work with computers and IT systems every day.

I just don't see the relevance to the RBRR.

Okay, you've got all this tracker information and you've got all your early arrival times.

Good for you.

Now, what are you going to do with it.

Is there going to be some poor soul sitting at a computer analysing all this information for 48 hours as the event progresses?

Do you really think there is going to be some poor soul sitting at a computer analysing all this information for 48 hours as the event progresses?

And do what exactly with all this data that will be of more benefit than the existing tried and tested system?

And what are you going to do with the "Luddites" who don't buy into this?

Force them to download this onto their own smartphone?

Force them to buy a smartphone if they don't already have one?

Exclude them if their tracking device doesn't work?

Have "live" exclusions from the event if someone arrives early at a control, even if they've had problems at Loch Shin and "cut and run" down the A9 to Stirling?

There's a place for tracking and barcodes in motoring events with big budgets such as Le Jog and WRC events.

It is not necessary for what is basically an extended Club run.

As I said before, sense will prevail and the organising committee will run another brilliant RBRR.

And remember gentle reader, all this hi-tech stuff came from the same people who thought it was a good idea to position a control on a motorway off ramp, in the dark, with an ever lengthing queue of Triumphs building up, extending down onto the slow lane while the glitches in the tracking system are sorted out or while some hapless crew member tries to find his dropped smartphone in the dark from below the passenger seat.

Not everyone is adept with smartphone technology or computers and the non Luddities should be a little less condescending, thinking that technology will always make things better.

Jim.

[RobPearce]

Quoted from McJim Too-

Hardly a Luddite.

I work with computers and IT systems every day.

Historically, the original Luddites were forced to work with "new technology" every day. They didn't embrace it, they feared it and became Luddites. I think your objection fails.

 

Quoted from McJim Too-

There's a place for tracking and barcodes in motoring events with big budgets such as Le Jog and WRC events.

It is not necessary for what is basically an extended Club run.

My local area use location tracking on mobile phones for our club runs. Why do you feel that's so unbearable?

 

But this is all a bit ridiculous, to be honest. I did not enter this discussion as a proponent of "all this hi-tech stuff". If you really work with computers you should have been familiar with the <GDR> tag I used right at the start and known I was being ironic. If you had made reasonable points in a reasonable tone, I would have supported your position - the RBRR works as it stands and the marshals do a great job. Instead your rants have become progressively more rantish and less connected with the spirit of considering possibilities that ought to be the point of any discussion.

We already expect all teams to provide a mobile phone number. In this day and age, that's a pretty sure bet that each car has a smartphone on board (even I, extreme phone Luddite that I am, have relegated the dumbphone to a cupboard). Why are you so utterly horrified at the mere thought of considering whether they might be used to some benefit?

[McJim]

Quoted from RobPearce-

they might be used to some benefit?

And, eh, to do what exactly?

Quoted from RobPearce-

Anyway, nothing's going to change for next year, 

That's kind of my point.

I actually have access to and use a vehicle tracking system in my job.

It is professionally hard wired into all our vehicles with the attendant software to go with it, yet it still doesn't lend itself to be of much use in a car club run.

This is an argument that will have us going round in circles ad infinitum - but with the right technology, we can be confident that we will be able to track our progress even if the gathering of that information is as futile as this discussion.

Jim.

[PeteStupps]

Just wanted to chime in to agree with most of Jim's points, not wishing to perpetuate the argument. Modern technology can make a lot of things easier and quicker, but I don't see a strong argument for replacing manned controls with GPS tracking or similar. QR codes would hardly be quicker than stamping a book, and if they had to be stuck on the car, well how many people had all their stickers still present and correct by Skiatch?! I know we'd lost most of one side by Wetherby. If instead you had your barcode or QR code on the roadbook then surely the time saving would be negligible to non-existent. Plus everyone can operate a pen or pencil, with very low failure rate. 

Queuing at Wetherby was a bit of a bore but gave me the chance to get to know some more people. The friendly marshals at each control give the event a lot of its atmosphere, in my opinion: gives you a sense of the scale, when people have given up their time to hang around a petrol station at 3am and wave you on your way. Obviously if there are problems recruiting marshals then there is an argument for trying something else at particular locations, but for me one of the enjoyable aspects of the RBRR was its old-fashioned simplicity. I didn't have to log in to anything or verify my username or bank details, or accept cookies, or keep my phone on charge all the time. It's a very pleasing breath of old air in the modern world. 

Thinking of most of the people who organise and participate in the RBRR, and how unique the non-stop 48hr format is. For me, simplicity wins.

Notwithstanding that I'm certainly up for doing things on the side, like group sharing of map locations, as an informal thing for whoever can be bothered. We spent a lot of time imagining we were at the back of the pack, and would be reassuring to have seen where others were. Phone battery charge was an issue for us though so I wouldn't want to be tied into having one device on GPS all weekend. 

Anyway at the end of the day this is just a discussion forum, not the RBRR steering committee, so feel free to disagree with everything I say.

Happy Christmas all.

Pete

[ferny]

https://youtu.be/VKHFZBUTA4k

[Velocita Rosso]

Quoted from ferny-

https://youtu.be/VKHFZBUTA4k

That`s nearly as old as yourself...

[Tim Hunt]

I have followed this thread with interest. I can see that GPS or a smart phone app are useful in allowing a crew to identify their exact location in the event of a breakdown so they can report this to a recovery service and the event organisers but I do not see what real advantage the new technology, QR codes and the rest offers to entrants or the organising team. As a veteran of the 1974 Run I think one of the charms of the RBRR is that it follows closely the nature of the first few events. I endorse everything that Pete says in post 61, refreshingly as a relatively new convert to this wonderful event. 

All we need is a couple of extra marshals at the first control, don't bitch about having to queue for a prolonged time if you arrive long before a control opens, marshals are immune to this and you simply won't get a signature before the appointed time. If it ain't broke don't fix it!

Best wishes to all readers for Christmas and the New Year.

Tim

[Clive]

I did post earlier about this, and have been thinking. 

A live tracking, although by no means essential, would be a great way for sponsers/family/friends etc to be able to track progress of a vehicle. And as I said earlier, handy for marshals to see where  the latecomers are and give them an idea if they have 10 minutes or a couple of hours wait. I know we have phones, but reception can be patchy, and people probably don't make lots of calls as updates.

The tech for that is easily available, but having a single platform for all those who wanted to use it would be good.

Again all suggestions. The event is so well run/organised that there really are no big changes necessary, but a few little tweeks are always worth thinking about.

[RobPearce]

Yes, I think Clive makes a good point. We absolutely don't need to change anything - and I can see the attraction of the signed road book as a souvenir - but I do feel sorry for the marshals that have to wait around not really knowing whether the last three cars are still running. I know from personal experience that it's hard to remember to phone ahead if you're only running late (I did call ahead one year because I thought we were out but the Toledo "recovered" after half an hour parked on Dartmoor and eventually made it all the way round). Also, live tracking would have saved the Okehampton marshals waiting for me in 2014 when, due to miscommunication and tiredness, we drove straight past!

[Tim Bancroft]

My thoughts about modern tech on the RBRR have always been based upon the fact that it is an old car event and therefore really modern tech may not be appropriate. 

We never suffer attracting Marshals to run Controls, most are really keen. Malcolm Philpot who runs the Okehampton Control for us with his wife, are more than keen, they are prepared to go down with their caravan from Hertfordshire and run the Control which as we all know is in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night. This is typical of the help we receive.

I like the idea of tracking of cars, but feel that they would not suit the event. Also, as mentioned above, I fear we would get a few misguided entrants mis-using the system.

The RBRR team are all volunteers trying to put on a professional event and judging by the response of Club members we are doing ok. Obviously, we want to evolve the RBRR, and we may consider such stuff one day..

By the way Nigel Abdullah who is the Central Control for the event is on constant contact with all Marshals via a WhatsApp group (we used to use conventional text...WhatsApp is so much better...modern communication), so we don't get many of them sitting around waiting for late vehicles.

We have our second Organisational Meeting a week on Sunday, I will stick this topic onto the Agenda.

Merry Xmas....

[TedTaylor]

All fair comments Tim.

 

MUT