Newbie observations...

[CRAJ]

The pies were certainly MIA by the time we got there and there were still a fair amount of crews still to arrive!

Colin

[Triumph Only]

Thank you Steve, I will remember next time... ;)

Colin, can you please tell me what MIA means?

[Velocita Rosso]

Missing In Action....

[Triumph Only]

Thank you

[Darren Sharp]

I would not get too hung up on the cliques issue guys , basically all you are seeing as a newbie are groups of guys who love this event and look forward to seeing each other to face the challenge together (again). They have friendships built up over many years and they sometimes only see each other on these events. As secretary I tried to find as many new crews as I could before the start and I am aware of how much time and effort was put in by Tim in trying to ensure his team and Derek the President of the club and Dave Shewry  the Chairman did the same, that is some commitment ! Yes the Macmillan girl needs some training in public address but she was young and much better looking than the rest of the panel (sorry guys). In mild defence of the new guys I can remember feeling a bit isolated at the start of my first RBRR when I saw all the raucous greetings and little groups of cars that always seemed to be together but now I see different groups of people doing exactly the same thing . I think it is called bonding!  Get yourselves along to your nearest club night or if you don't have one nearby post on here and start one. Club Triumph is strong guys and we have largely these wonderful events to thank for it .

Darren Sharp Club Secretary  

[Jason]

I've got to admit to having read this and felt upset at the way some criticisms are being made.

Using words like "dull", "uninformative", "annoying", "unhelpful" don't do much to encourage anyone, let alone a bunch of volunteers who work evenings and weekends unpaid for the benefit of others. I don't think rendering these criticisms in an open forum is going to help break down any perceived clique barriers.

I think the opinions on the charity presentation are fair - we should have enforced the timings we gave her and wound it up no matter how tricky that is.

Remember here that the organisers are not all seasoned public speakers, it takes an awful lot of guts to stand up before you guys and deliver a presentation let alone create one suitable for you. I take the point about it being disjointed at times - sometimes presenters forget what's coming next and "jump" slides, then have to go back or forget their thread - sorry. We can work on that and make it flow a bit better, I'll also work on the timing with the  team, and bring my alarm clock for the next charity speaker!

I'm quite unsympathetic to crews who appear at controls outside the time slots - it's a challenge, it's meant to be hard, it's not competitive against others, it's competitive against yourself. Can you prepare a car and crew to complete a pre-set course within the time and rules? I know what it's like to fail, it's humbling and crushingly disappointing. That's why we continue to run it, so you can come back again and do it right. Sometimes you get lucky but you know what? The more you practice the luckier you get.

As for the aerial photo of Tebay, sorry - I couldn't find one of the place in the dark but I took one this year and will use that next time.

I feel I may been overly defensive but the original poster felt it was his right to say his piece and I respect that, so I hope people will respect my right to tell him I think's wrong and I don't like the way he said it  :)

OK now I've got that off my chest I will take on board the concerns with the rest of the team and we'll work through them.

[Deleted User]

You can please some of the people most of the time!

I agree in most of the original points, I always find the drivers meeting a big drive and usage of my time for what I think is not required or needed and overly long. Drivers road books in the RBRR! or 10CR are always comprehensive and well written but they are for me to convert to Sat Nav as I find the road book is for me only for reference and a distraction on the runs.

The RBRR for me is a great event but restricted, I would like to see a modern twist added with the removal of manned checkpoints and the addition of a CT RBRR checkpoint sticker which can be photographed with a time clock. This allows cars to start any checkpoint and finish at the same, encompassing the whole event to the route without having to drive to the London start point. Yes entrants would have to sort their own food out for breakfast and pies out at certain check points but that would reduce the cost of the event for entrants.

I also think a min contribution for charity is a must, out of interest were there any cars that have zero sponsorship monies??

The event would run over the same 48 hours and it would need a lot less man power to run. I know these changes would never be introduced as it is too far away from the original event, I personally think the word reliability should stay.

All the above is IMHO.

ROb

[Velocita Rosso]

Jason wrote:

I've got to admit to having read this and felt upset at the way some criticisms are being made.

Using words like "dull", "uninformative", "annoying", "unhelpful" don't do much to encourage anyone, let alone a bunch of volunteers who work evenings and weekends unpaid for the benefit of others. I don't think rendering these criticisms in an open forum is going to help break down any perceived clique barriers.

I think the opinions on the charity presentation are fair - we should have enforced the timings we gave her and wound it up no matter how tricky that is.

Remember here that the organisers are not all seasoned public speakers, it takes an awful lot of guts to stand up before you guys and deliver a presentation let alone create one suitable for you. I take the point about it being disjointed at times - sometimes presenters forget what's coming next and "jump" slides, then have to go back or forget their thread - sorry. We can work on that and make it flow a bit better, I'll also work on the timing with the  team, and bring my alarm clock for the next charity speaker!

I'm quite unsympathetic to crews who appear at controls outside the time slots - it's a challenge, it's meant to be hard, it's not competitive against others, it's competitive against yourself. Can you prepare a car and crew to complete a pre-set course within the time and rules? I know what it's like to fail, it's humbling and crushingly disappointing. That's why we continue to run it, so you can come back again and do it right. Sometimes you get lucky but you know what? The more you practice the luckier you get.

As for the aerial photo of Tebay, sorry - I couldn't find one of the place in the dark but I took one this year and will use that next time.

I feel I may been overly defensive but the original poster felt it was his right to say his piece and I respect that, so I hope people will respect my right to tell him I think's wrong and I don't like the way he said it  :)

OK now I've got that off my chest I will take on board the concerns with the rest of the team and we'll work through them.

The general `complaints `/observations that have been made , have come from newcomers to the event/new members/new to CT.............not understanding the event/the people or running of CT and expecting something different to what they thought
I can understand what some are saying, but in the case of the RBR.....what they received is what we provide every two years ....there is no getting away from the fact, that it is run by volunteers,it is done for the same reason, it achieves similar results
I don `t see much criticism from the regulars or long standing members against the running of the RBR as they know what to/or not to  expect
This should and would have been a learning curve for all the newcomers, who thought they would have been fed and watered all around the route or expect the route to be more suited to their requirements
The organisers work very hard to produce this event and are supported by many faceless,but well known, helpers before and on the day.
The rules are clear both in the road book and at the driver meet, I was there and could not any problems with what the event was/is all about( apart from some personal observation of mine)
For the next RBR, just take stock of what happened ,who did what, where you went wrong and what you do not get and use it to your advantage and don`t forget...............this event always takes nearly two years to plan and organise. No sooner was the event completed..............plans start for the next event.
  

[Davemate]

This was my second go at this event
Loved it, all of it  :)
The next one --- I'll be there, in my car though, I've got to get my own team as Mr Radders wants to use his car as well. I already have a co driver but I still have to sort team member 3.
I'll be going to the drivers meeting as its a good trial run with the car being fully load with spares and a full crew and a chance to meet the other teams.

As for what's been said
Last time being my first go at it ---- bang on, that's why I came back for second go 😀

This time --- I was totaly amazed that with so many first timers no one asked any questions, two years ago there was about 45 mins of questions and with so many new teams I wasn't looking forward for prolonged Q&A section !
Apart from that "charity lady" streching her 15 mins a bit, but we've all been to meetings that have sections that over run, it was all ok with me.

To me,to many folk made the classic mistake of chatting and hanging around at the checkpoints.
We were car 101 away from the plough.
At Blyth we kicked out a team member to get the book signed whilst the car was being fully fuelled up then away we went. We only got held up for 15 min max in the traffic hold up on the A1.
At Carter bar we were second car through, by doing what we did at Blyth it put us on track to arrive at most checkpoints as or just before they opened, we only leapfrogged folk because they must have been chatting 😳
It's not a race,but if your target is to arrive at the opening time of the checkpoint then that gives you a large amount of breakdown time and still stay on track.
10 mins of chatting at each checkpoint ---- work it out, by checkpoint 6 you've lost an hour and you try making up an hour during the Scotland country lane section !
Park sensibly at the checkpoints, how many cars got boxed in so couldn't get away once the book was signed.

Looking fordward to the next one already 😜
If there's anything I can do to help the organisers just ask 😃

[Steve P]

My second go too,last one ended with three wheels on my wagon in Cornwall.

We had fuelling problems all the way to Inverness and couldn`t get up any slight gradient without losing power and one cylinder,finally sorted out near Inverness at 6am.

I thought we were dead last and considered missing Skiach but went anyway.I was pleasantly surprised to find it still open,we were told there were at least 5 outstanding to come through so we carried on.

We made all the other stops in good time and were really pleased to finish.

As for changes,the RBRR is what it is,and being an old fart and a traditionalist,i would be loathed to see it changed substantially.We did abandon Lands End for McDonalds though.

As for 2016,i`ll be back,though i do seem to have a problem being a passenger in one of my cars,i get irritated with other peoples driving style.
Big thanks to all who make it happen.
Steve

[Dannyb]

Davemate, Spot on. On the 2012 event it was made very clear to us first timers to not hang around and chat at the check points because it's time you may need later. But I don't think that point was made clear at the drivers meeting this time to the newbies. At least I can't remeber it being mentioned.

[Davemate]

1684 wrote:

Davemate, Spot on. On the 2012 event it was made very clear to us first timers to not hang around and chat at the check points because it's time you may need later. But I don't think that point was made clear at the drivers meeting this time to the newbies. At least I can't remeber it being mentioned.

I thought it was mentioned this year, several times, which is why team Radders couldn't believe how the hell we jumped that far up the ladder at the first checkpoint 😳
At a few checkpoints we arrived just after the checkpoint had opened to be met by a few cars in the carpark, but left before most of them as they were chatting and having coffee and snacks.
By going point to point useing a sat nav rather than going by the road book you can pull back some time but then that's another story.
The only advice I'd give is "don't hang about"

[Alex]

Tell the truth the only reason you don't hang about talking is coz you've got no friends!
;)

[Davemate]

Alex wrote:

Tell the truth the only reason you don't hang about talking is coz you've got no friends!
;)

☺️😀😃😳😂😪
I'm not one to make a fuss about things, but I needed a big saloon to fit my TWO freinds in.
What car did you use  :P

[Alex]

Haha ok you win :-)

[Horace]

I don't think the criticisms are that major really. All they boil down to is a bit more info at the drivers meeting for newbies who are not quite sure what to expect.  Sure you can say the criticisms are only from newbies and they will learn by doing the event but that makes the drivers meeting pointless. There was a lot of pressure to attend and no doubt that increased expectation that it was going to provide all the details needed.  I think perhaps people have taken minor criticisms too much to heart. Regardless, it is a great event and i thoroughly enjoyed it.  I think the newbies are simply trying to make it better for newbies next time round - speaking from experience in organising other events its all to easy to keep doing the same thing until someone with fresh eyes spots a problem.  But i say again the points are pretty minor and could be dealt with in 5 mins in a meeting.

Finally all big events need a debriefing and it is impossible to run an event that is 100% perfect for everybody. Youve just got to evaluate the points decide whether to change it next time or not. However, no matter how sorely tempted you may be never dismiss criticism because they are new types and the old stagers know whats what- that just closes the club off to new blood and creates a them and us feeling.  Also, i act as an unpaid volunteer and expect to be criticised sometimes.  As shown by those organising this event, just because you are an unpaid volunteer, doesn't mean you aren't thoroughly professional. If you are professional you expect to be judged as such- good or bad!

To save time and cost and perhaps to create better integration of old and new, had it ever been suggested that there are 3 or 4 smaller regional meetings rather than one big one?

[cook1e]

We have had two separate meetings in the past, one south one midlands but I think it's a question of cost of two venues.

[Horace]

Just thought smaller meetings may be cheaper - only need a small village hall surely? Gaydon must cost a bomb! Also I think it would mean newbies would be more integrated etc . The organisers made a point of introducing themselves and that was welcome but I didn't talk to any other people - other than a couple of other newbies I knew from home. Very British but I didn't want to but in to conversations of the old stagers who all new each other! No one was unfriendly, it's just in big crowds you are less likely to speak than in a small gathering. My Cost comment was more to do with fuel/time etc in getting to a central event

Bob

[Dannyb]

I do enjoy the the drivers meetings but I'm only 2 hours away from Gaydon and it's a nice day out. But I can understand that crews from further afield it can be a bit costly with some having to book into hotels. I can see the benefits of more local meeting where the charity presentation can be on video.

[Raider]

Smaller meetings?

If it's possible newbies should go to their local area meetings.

At Pendle and Pennine we have given best advice to first timers and this year arranged delivery of spares.  Our newbies also knew where those of us marshalling would be so they knew where there would be friendly faces.

[yorkshire_spam]

Raider wrote:

Smaller meetings?

If it's possible newbies should go to their local area meetings.

At Pendle and Pennine we have given best advice to first timers and this year arranged delivery of spares.  Our newbies also knew where those of us marshalling would be so they knew where there would be friendly faces.

And much appreciated it was too!

[Shed 1969]

Martin has a very very good point newbie’s go to their local meeting a couple of months before the event and take /ask advice from some of the “old RBR hands” who have arranged to be at  the local meeting

Taking it a step further – Maybe some of the “old hands” could list their contact detail in the RBR members only bit of the forum  and a preferred way of being contacted ?
A “newbie’s checklist” could be made available to take away at local meets prior to the event?

Just thoughts…

[RobPearce]

Sorry to butt in late on this. Some very good points made (and some of them conceded).

Drivers' meeting - as a fairly old hand (this was my tenth RBRR) I would say this year's charity rep was given too much time to waffle on about herself, but this was the first time the rep has done that, so I can sympathise with the committee not enforcing time limits based on past experience.

The road book run through... sorry Tim, but I'm going to disagree. It might be useful for salient points and additions, but I fear Nigel is not gifted at public speaking and I've always found it hard to stay awake while he reads out every detail (OK, I exagerate, but it has the feel of a guy reading every word on his powerpoint slides)

Controls / marshalls / being late - well, if you're late you can't expect the marshalls to have hung around. That said, we were late at nearly every control and the marshalls were all still there. Most of them do hang around but I can certainly understand the ones at Carter Bar wanting to go home and get warm and dry!

As for smaller meetings and old-hands' contacts, I'd be happy to do my part on that (within the limitations of the practical non-existence of the Cambridge area) but it's only going to be 'in addition to' the DM, because the organisers and charity reps can't do all those separate small meetings.

Oh, and this year was the first time I've used a sat-nav, and the first time I've ever completely missed a control because we'd forgotten it was there (and the sat nav didn't tell us). Also, the first time it's taken five minutes to leave the parking space at Edinburgh because the sat nav needed rebooting. Use the road book, it's much more reliable  ;)

[Velocita Rosso]

8861 wrote:

Martin has a very very good point newbie’s go to their local meeting a couple of months before the event and take /ask advice from some of the “old RBR hands” who have arranged to be at  the local meeting

Taking it a step further – Maybe some of the “old hands” could list their contact detail in the RBR members only bit of the forum  and a preferred way of being contacted ?
A “newbie’s checklist” could be made available to take away at local meets prior to the event?

Just thoughts…

....and there`s no more older hands than at Pendle and Pennine.....or brains ;D ;D

Every one knows me....or most of you do and there is nobody more amenable to helping people with hands on or information............and I never get upset with people asking repetitive questions.
In more postings of this thread more observations are brought to light , as you say AJP, by members who appear not to want to interrupt,ask questions, introduce themselves.
If attending a local meeting ,only once,other older attendees will know who you are what their personality is like(whether you can take a CT ribbing etc).....and this is how you get to know people ....or who likes using screen wipes for toilet rolls
We are not a bunch of stuck up toffs....its not the Rolls Royce Club......its a Triumph, the every day working mans club
Information is easily gleaned, for example, to answer some of the above,all the committee and organisers appreciate being interrupted to ask questions, then they know you have got it right by the answers they give. Also most will know the `de briefing` does take place and comments analysed for months , at event and committee level.
Yes we have had separate meetings , but that also incurs additional cost for organisers/helpers to do a `double shuffle`to two different locations
No one is getting irate at comments being made as all remarks are investigated
However this event has been going on since 1966 and is considered to be well organised right up to the week prior to the event, and everyone keeps coming back.....so we must be doing something right    

[TedTaylor]

Here are my views for what they are worth.

Drivers Meeting.
1. Sorry but I did find it useful, especially as a first timer because it gave me chance to get information that I was not aware of especially in Nigel's piece.  I have given drivers briefings before events and it gives a chance of making sure everyone has been advised of specific points - not saying they did not know after a mistake has been made.
2. Biggest problem I had was that my hearing is not as good as it used to be - OK if no background hubbub which is why one to one talking in a quiet room is OK but in a busy room as some have realised I have problems, and also in a large meeting if the PA is poor and directional as the one being used was.
3. Yes the Macmillan rep. gave some nice info on the charity but did waffle on and needs some public speaking training to ensure that she learns how to get her message across succinctly.  Difficult for Tim/Jason to do much about it without appearing rude.
4. Location.  We had a 2 hour journey which was OK, but realising that some were coming down from the North I can see the problem.  Only way round it is to have have a second DM meeting up North which would make it easier for all to attend and therefore compulsory to attend one of them.  Downside is the extra work it puts onto already busy organisers.

Presentation
Please don't criticise people for how they speak to large groups when they are not used to it.  As a teacher I was very used to taking assemblies of up to 1500 pupils and was very relaxed with it.  When I came to have to address a large group of adults I found it intimidating and it took me a few goes to get used to standing up in front of a group of my peers and sounding off and eventually chairing meetings and feeling comfortable about it.  Does not make the info being given any the less useful - just a desire to want to appreciate it.

Local Groups.  
Our local group is only a few of us - Gordon and Myself and a couple of others forming mixed Triumph Group unless a crowd come over from TSSC Cardiff in the summer.  The sort of info and help that would have been useful would therefore not have been available locally and the DM was valuable for that.  However I can see the value of having some local social get togethers of entrants where general help could be shared.  Although I have attended the Wessex Group in the past even though not really my area, I have not been for some time but would make a point of going if there was a 'RBRR evening'.

Marshals
Disappointed that there were so many marshals at Signing In that I 'know' on the Forum but I was not aware they were signing our book.  It would have been nice to be able to put names to faces when I was saying thanks for being at the control point - especially as some I know quite well from Forum discussion - even though we would not have had time for a chat.

Schedule
After breaking down about a mile from the start (!!!!!!), although sorted quite quickly it put us right behind schedule for Blythe.  Then some local friends made a point of coming to see us which meant we chatted a bit more than we wanted (though we did get useful info on the Doncaster detour due to the A1 crash), but were now behind schedule and worrying about getting our Carter Bar signature where the marshals were brilliant in staying late in such awful conditions.  Edinburgh was a problem and caused delays because it took so long to get coffee AND we could not get out and had to return to the main building to find out what to do - both experience for next time.  However realised that marshals were staying late and after Skiach the pressure came off as we realised so many were running late that allowance was being made for it, though we did work to get back within schedule while on the road and started learn to cut short scheduled stops at controls.
A system of allowing people running late and missing a signature at a control would be useful - especially if that lateness was caused by helping someone in trouble.  Having the option takes pressure off getting to a control on time, and how people drive.
Really it is all a case of first timer experience to be remembered for next time.

And yes we do hope there will be a next time if wife and daughter let me  :-/ but this time without health and car preparation problems making it such a last minute panic.  The plan is to have the option of three cars actually ready as had been hope this time but with lead in time/health/preparation problems getting in the way:
The Mk1 'period rally' saloon, the Mk1 PI estate, and faithful 'Woodie' who was raked in at the last minute and got us round this time with no dramas. There will be a spare with Gordon and I having one each ........ so if Fuzz wants to travel in comfort this time .......... ;D

MUT