Newbie observations...

[Shed 1969]

I’ve heard about your "Hands on" ....are you still wearing the tag?

I think the key points are that Newbie’s should be encouraged to go to a local meeting prior to the DM to get the "crack" from someone who has done it before- if they can’t make a meeting  for whatever reason ...get in touch with some "grumpy old gits up North via email/phone" to get the crack.. or click on a box somewhere on the site that says "newbie’s information" that way they don’t have to embarrass them self asking school boy questions or trying to translate "grumpy Northern" dialect

[Velocita Rosso]

8861 wrote:

I’ve heard about your "Hands on" ....are you still wearing the tag?

or trying to translate "grumpy Northern" dialect

Dornt naw wot tha mearns.......me ole mangle :P

[GreenV8Machine]

Tha nows naht jon snor!

[Shed 1969]

Sorry babel fish just crashed but I think I got the jist and the answer is no you canot borrow my latex collection

[cnicholson]

and so the sat nav continues to be a point of contention.

I found it rather ironic that i was late marshaling the badgers holt stop because i entrusted the wife to program the sat nav....... only trouble was is that there's a badgers holt road in Okehampton, so I ended up joining the bulk of the convoy on route to the control which was good fun in the tr6. I can't really blame the Mrs though i should have known better than to go against my instinct and ignore the stupid machine.

Here in lies the moral sat navs are useful for trunking across the country like a sheep, speed awareness, and the contours of unfamiliar roads, and they can get you out of the mire when late, but the road book is probably the best tool.

The best thing i could have done when i did it in 2012 was to draw the route onto a large scale map, so that when lost it would have been easier to get back on route. This would have been even better if i could have sat down with somebody who knew the route at the drivers meeting or a local club meeting.

I will hopefully be able to do the next one in the TR6, i'm fairly sure i will need a co driver though as I can't see the Mrs wanting to go through the experience without the luxury of a rear seat to sleep on....

Above all well done for those that tried, and a very big well done for the organizer's without which it simply would not happen.

[Radders]

1526 wrote:

Here are my views for what they are worth.


A system of allowing people running late and missing a signature at a control would be useful - especially if that lateness was caused by helping someone in trouble.  Having the option takes pressure off getting to a control on time, and how people drive.



MUT

Really don't agree with this at all Ted, sorry. The challenge is not only to get round, but to get round all of it. If we give people the option of missing a control, then the spirit of the event has been lost.

If I'm pushing people for sponsorship money, and I didn't make every control, I wouldn't feel that I had the right to claim the money from them afterwards. I know it's harsh, but, if you've missed a control then you haven't completed the event and shouldn't be entitled to a finishers award.

[McJim]

As an organiser running an event on a Touring Assembly Permit such as the RBRR, you can't penalise crews for not visiting controls outwith a set time period.

That would make the event into more of a competition, which the RBRR is not.

The main reason for the event is to get a Triumph from London to John O'Groats to Land's End and back to London in a notional 48 hours but no penalties can be imposed if they miss out a control due to a breakdown for instance or helping a fellow crew get their car running again.

As long as they reach the four main points of the route, then they would be deemed to have completed the RBRR.

However, missing out all the other controls other than the start, finish and JoG and LE would be outwith the spirit of the event.

There is no prize for coming back first to the Plough and I've yet to see who the first crew were at the finish on the Forum although it was posted in another place.

CT go to great length to point out to all that this is not a competitive event.

Any introduction of a competitive element such as penalising crews who miss the odd control would invalidate the Touring Assembly Permit.

That's why there are finishers awards and not prizes.

Jim.

[Radders]

9926 wrote:

The main reason for the event is to get a Triumph from London to John O'Groats to Land's End and back to London in a notional 48 hours but no penalties can be imposed if they miss out a control due to a breakdown for instance or helping a fellow crew get their car running again.

As long as they reach the four main points of the route, then they would be deemed to have completed the RBRR.

Jim.

Really Jim? I wasn't aware of that. In my short time with CT (compared to most on here) I always had the understanding that it was a challenge and that the 'challenge' was not only to complete the route, but to make all the check points as well.

I didn't realise that if you missed a check point you were still classed as a finisher.  Asking my sponsors for money knowing I hadn't visited all of the check points still wouldn't sit right with me though.  :(

[Shed 1969]

Its a tricky one! the last thing we want to happen is it to be deemed "competitive" in anyway - a lawyer would argue that not getting a dodgy tankard at the end because you visited one less control makes it competitive?

Whereas "Challenge" has a different legal ring or even "personal challenge" so in my head I don't worry a toss about the tankard my personal challenge is to make every control .....get my drift!

[Radders]

8861 wrote:

so in my head I don't worry a toss about the tankard my personal challenge is to make every control .....get my drift!

Totally agree Andy, and it will continue to remain mine.  ;)

[McJim]

In these days of appeasing the MSA, okay, complying with their rules  :), setting official time limits when controls close and penalising crews who don't visit the control on time is, in my book, a road rally.

While it may not sit well that crews who miss a control are still regarded as finishers, it must be allowed to maintain the non competitive nature of the event.

The official club line, from what I remember, was that the route in the roadbook is advisory and, again, no penalty is imposed if you don't follow the exact route.

In the days when I ran La Carrera, the route was always advisory as to impose a set route and an entrant had an accident due to you "forcing" him to use that particular road opens up a legal minefield if it wasn't for having the protection of a Touring Assembly Permit from the MSA and the insurance back up that comes with it.

For that reason alone, for CT to inject or even infer a competitive element could easily invalidate the Touring Assembly Permit and leave the club liable.

Jim.

[Wilfrid]

The tankards are definitely NOT dodgy!!!!

[Wilfrid]

The tankards are definitely NOT dodgy!!!!

[TedTaylor]

My comment was not to give people the option of missing a control but to be able to prove they had arrived there should they get there after the marshals have left.

Mind you from my experience of running a national classic motor sporting club and an association, and having much contact with the MSA - I have to say that all that McJim says is spot on.  

We must not in any way make it seem that the event is competitive and more than strictly a touring assembly type event.  To make it appear more than this is where unfortunately the issue of the 'Reliability' tag comes in and its potential confusion with Reliability Trials like the Exeter and Lands End Trials which are competitive.  I recently commented on this matter to a friend who is well up in the historic motor sport scene and he commented that they have so much trouble with organisers trying to push the regs past the point of legality that they have to be strict with everything.

I have said before, we are not simply at risk of falling foul of MSA regulations but the law of the land as well with its potential disastrous consequences for individuals and CT.

Everything that Tim, Nigel and Jason do has to strike a balance between making the event a challenge while still keeping within MSA regulations and the Law.  Not an easy task and one I have admiration for how they are doing it knowing how difficult it is

MUT

[Dannyb]

What would happen if a crew visit every check point but turned up at the plough the next day (Monday morning) would they be classed as finishing and recieve a tankard. There must be some sort of time restraints, or would that make it competitive.

[ferny]

The RBRR is a driving event. To complete an event you have to match certain criteria. To me this means going to all controls in good time. When I found out others had received a finishers award when cutting out control points it removed a large chunk of its meaning or worth. I find the event a lot harder than some (going by responses by others) and it was a nice pat on the back for doing it properly yet others have been presented with the same reward for doing less? Nah, give them a "you've been a brave boy" dentist sticker for entering instead.

I do strongly feel there should be some way of allowing the people who are really struggling to make control points within the window some reward for getting to them. Be it a photo of the location or some other means to work as proof. A signing book or CT sticker left there wouldn't work as who would collect it afterwards and leaving debris at control points is bad practise. Working against problems and fighting against the shit thrown at you is part of the event and even the best prepared cars can fail. Things break, things fall apart, shit happens. Anyone who has managed to carry on deserves to be rewarded.

Your good working alternator has failed so you fit a brand new one, which shortly fails, another team comes to your rescue by donating their spare so you're safe and don't have bits fall off in the cold. You're now both behind time but come up to another car who has had the misfortune of finding every lost screw on the run and is on their second puncture but no spare. The crew with the dodgy alternator was carrying two so give it to the stranded crew and now they're rolling as a three but well behind time and have just gone full pelt into the back of an traffic jam caused by an accident most crews have missed as it happened after they went through the area. All three cars arrive at the next control over an hour late which is good going really yet now they're not going to have any means to "finish" the event. That's not fair and in all honesty they all deserve the reward more than the bloke flying around at 95mph and getting everywhere first.


Oh, and the M40 is shit. It always will be, except when it's not. And the surrounding roads are always better to use, except when they're not. I don't really understand the complaint? Or maybe I've spent far too long driving around that area to know how unpredictable it can all be. When those alternative roads get jammed you're buggard more than you would be on a stationary M40.

[Shed 1969]

2287 wrote:

The tankards are definitely NOT dodgy!!!!

They are when filled with home made cider ...several times!

[Velocita Rosso]

8861 wrote:

They are when filled with home made cider ...several times!

...you mean it actually stays in a container without burning holes in it? :P

[Davemate]

8861 wrote:

They are when filled with home made cider ...several times!

Well stop drinking meths then 😜

[Shed 1969]

ferny wrote:

The RBRR is a driving event. To complete an event you have to match certain criteria. To me this means going to all controls in good time. When I found out others had received a finishers award when cutting out control points it removed a large chunk of its meaning or worth. I find the event a lot harder than some (going by responses by others) and it was a nice pat on the back for doing it properly yet others have been presented with the same reward for doing less? Nah, give them a "you've been a brave boy" dentist sticker for entering instead.

I do strongly feel there should be some way of allowing the people who are really struggling to make control points within the window some reward for getting to them. Be it a photo of the location or some other means to work as proof. A signing book or CT sticker left there wouldn't work as who would collect it afterwards and leaving debris at control points is bad practise. Working against problems and fighting against the shit thrown at you is part of the event and even the best prepared cars can fail. Things break, things fall apart, shit happens. Anyone who has managed to carry on deserves to be rewarded.

Your good working alternator has failed so you fit a brand new one, which shortly fails, another team comes to your rescue by donating their spare so you're safe and don't have bits fall off in the cold. You're now both behind time but come up to another car who has had the misfortune of finding every lost screw on the run and is on their second puncture but no spare. The crew with the dodgy alternator was carrying two so give it to the stranded crew and now they're rolling as a three but well behind time and have just gone full pelt into the back of an traffic jam caused by an accident most crews have missed as it happened after they went through the area. All three cars arrive at the next control over an hour late which is good going really yet now they're not going to have any means to "finish" the event. That's not fair and in all honesty they all deserve the reward more than the bloke flying around at 95mph and getting everywhere first.


Oh, and the M40 is shit. It always will be, except when it's not. And the surrounding roads are always better to use, except when they're not. I don't really understand the complaint? Or maybe I've spent far too long driving around that area to know how unpredictable it can all be. When those alternative roads get jammed you're buggard more than you would be on a stationary M40.

Agree with above - but I don’t mind if someone gets the same "finishers token" as me even if they haven’t visited all the stops - In my head I know what I’ve achieved, one year (2006) I made it a personal mission to stop as often as possible to help people- I felt good about it and that’s all that mattered to me -although I did run a deer over diverting to my house to pick up a rear damper for a stag...how ironic!

The important thing is -like Jim says -is. dont put the MSA Permit at risk

The other point being the guy driving at 95mph everywhere also needs to be told  he will still  get a "finish" without risking a head on every five minutes -so needs to stop thinking words like "first" at control etc whilst driving...

[McJim]

Ferny,

Do you do the RBRR for the finishers award or for the personal satisfaction of a job well done.

I think for both of us, it would be the latter.

And turning up at the Plough the following morning to be a "finisher" is a non starter.

If that were possible, then why not turn up a week later at the Plough and claim to be a finisher?

The permit for the event will have a start date and an end date.

Turning up after the permit has expired the following day and the event has officially finished, how can anyone expect there to be someone there to sign there book?

The RBRR runs from Friday to Sunday.

If you can't get round before closing time at the Plough, then no one should expect to qualify as a finisher.

Jim.

[Shed 1969]

Fair piont! ref finishing a week later!

I also think some good old common sense should be applied as to who  gets accredited with a finish (if they have missed a control)-Tim and his team have plenty of common sense and that decision should be left to them!

[TedTaylor]

1684 wrote:

What would happen if a crew visit every check point but turned up at the plough the next day (Monday morning) would they be classed as finishing and recieve a tankard. There must be some sort of time restraints, or would that make it competitive.

Common sense and the MSA accept that there must be a time and date for the finish of the event which would be when the final checkpoint is officially closed in accordance with the permit from the MSA.  This may be time/date specific or simply when the last marshal is there to sign an entrant in - the following morning everyone including the finish marshal would be well gone and waking up somewhere else from a nights well deserved kip.

MUT

[Dannyb]

8861 wrote:

Fair piont! ref finishing a week later!

(if they have missed a control)-Tim and his team have plenty of common sense and that decision should be left to them!

Totaly agree enough said

[thescrapman]

391 wrote:

shouldn't be entitled to a finishers award.

Tut.. tut..

They are "Event Souveniers"... (naughty)