2020 RBRR: Any Changes that should be implemented for the event?

[Tim Bancroft]

All,

The organisational team will be holding a RBRR 2018 review meeting on the 24th Nov. We have quite a few new ideas for the 2020 event, nothing to earth shaking. But we would love to hear any ideas from all and sundry that could improve the event. Also, any moans would be appreciated.

Please do not be shy, whatever is stated will be considered.

Andy, Dave, Jason, Nigel and Tim

 

[thescrapman]

Tim

Sweeper. I think it would work better with a couple, either doing the whole route, or perhaps better would be one doing up to Edinburgh area, then another take over, the original taking over again in Stirling area, perhaps a third taking over Gordano area.

would allow time to stop and help crews without worrying about getting a long way behind.

Or maybe 2 or 3 doing the whole route but leapfrogging each other.

I heard about 30 cars failed to finish, which if true is not good. Will stats be published? 

Anything to get cars round has to be good.

Cheers

Colin

[Greta]

Speaking from experience marshalling endurance walking events the problem with sweeping is that it is all too easy to tie up your sweeper resources on one or two individuals - leaving later strugglers with little or no support - or support that only arrives too late to make catching up impossible.
One way of avoiding this problem we have used is that marshals at a control point - whilst also perhaps being in a position to help at the location of the control - also then sweep through to the next check point. 
In this way no one team of event supporters is committed for too long - or needs to travel too far. Intermixing halts with passage controls, adds greater monitoring opportunities and shortens the leg that a sweeper needs to travel.
The downside is that this demands an even greater contribution from support workers and multiple stocks of tools & spares. Perhaps those committing to marshal & support could be elligible for reserved or discounted entry the next time.
As members get younger and the cars get older there perhaps is a widening skills and experience gap - unfamiliarity with foibles and easy fixes. Running club "On event" - "On the Road" maintenance courses - for both drivers, marshalls and potential sweepers could do wonders towards improving CT Reliability Scores - perhaps we all  ... "Could do better -with a little after school detention!" and live by the motto "Be Prepared!"

[thescrapman]

Nuala has better worded what I was trying to say regards keeping up with the breakdowns.

[Howard]

I will add my thoughts :-

IMHO the RBRR needs to tweaked to provide some extra recovery time. This year, it all went very well & by keeping ahead of the main body we were able to pull up for a couple of hours sleep at Whitehouse services. This made a major difference to our enjoyment of the run.

The tweaks are relatively minor. In Scotland there are quicker routes from John O'Groats to Seitch and onward to Perth which is great to catch up if for any reason you are running late. However there is nothing similar in the South West. I would propose that the route remains unchanged but Badger's Holt control point is cancelled. This would allow anyone running late or who needs to sleep to take a route that saves about 1 hour traveling time between Lands End and Exeter (while still keeping Bude as a control).

I would also suggest starting at 5pm instead 6. If there is a problem with to many people arriving early at Seaview hotel, maybe the direction of the route from Sietch could be reversed so we are driving along the north coast as the sun rises.

Cheers & thanks to everyone for a great run.

Howard

PS Please. please no more unplanned diversions around Chepstow 😎😎

 

 

 

[Velocita Rosso]

Speaking from experience marshalling endurance walking events the problem with sweeping is that it is all too easy to tie up your sweeper resources on one or two individuals - leaving later strugglers with little or no support - or support that only arrives too late to make catching up impossible.
One way of avoiding this problem we have used is that marshals at a control point - whilst also perhaps being in a position to help at the location of the control - also then sweep through to the next check point

A partly good idea except the marshals have to keep the checkpoint open and manned for an hour after the supposed last runners go through. By which time the runners could very well be nearing the next checkpoint and by the time banners and promo items are cleared it could be well around three hours after the first runner went through.

So a closed checkpoint marshal could be heading up the road and not coming across a struggling runner for quite a few hours. Therefore if not fixable would be well on the way with a recovery vehicle

Good in principle but not a really practical. But its not my call   

[Hogie]

Hi Folks,

        I like the idea of the breakdown roadsweep.

The above problems are ones that could be resolved without too much pain - cearly volunteer support would be on a bigger scale. Not the end of the world though.

A problem that the sweepers would have to overcome is in having enough of the right parts.

So a serious inventory would have to be sorted before the off.

The more sweepers you have the more spares you will need.

Some suppliers may be happy to do a sale or return system.

Great idea. I'm up for it.

 

Roger

[Greta]

What is attractive about RBRR is it's tradition, it's distance, and the fact that the route visits both JoG & LE in a single w/e trip.
Modern trunk roads make the triangle relatively easy to achieve but if this predominantly uses only major roads the driving becomes bland, monotomous and not too enjoyable in a smaller or older car. Surely the enjoyment comes from preparing car and crew to meet a substantial challenge!
Visiting Controls accessible only via "driving roads" ( Altnaharra, Builth Wells, Badgers Holt & Turweston!) is what I found so engageing. I do concede that routing that permits participants to cut sections and rejoin and regain a schedule is also an important part of the planning.

Perhaps the souvenier awards need to be colour coded: Bronze for those that take the start, - visit LE & JoG and return within a predetermined time limit, Silver for those that make, say half a dozen other major controls, Gold for those that collect all controls and passage checks - and platinum soveniers for those that do all that within a more tightly defined time schedule - losing this status for arriving too early or departing too late.
This could then still involve cars & crew of all ages, insomniacs and sleepy heads alike - a safe challenge for everyone according to fitness & reliability.
While some may argue that this makes the event more like a rally than a tour I would counter that it actually encourages safer driving by ensuring that an award is still achieveable by persistence and perseverance when the inevitable circumstances throw a googley.
If a greater proportion of non motorway, non dual carriageway roads could be incorporated I'd welcome a time extension to 3 days which might also permit a brief 6 - 8 hour sleep over / service halt opportunity on the second night.

[brianthesnail96]

Personally I don't think it's broken (as kinda proven by the huge entry this year and last) and I don't think it needs overcomplicating or subtly nudging more competitiveness into it to "fix" it.  

I will agree that the timings might need revising in a few spots- the SW leg does seem to have no breathing space at all although it does level the playing field between us 2500 types and the brave folks in Heralds and the like, we all get stuck behind the same grockles! Some of the Northern timings seem a bit erratic too and obviously the 2 hour window at JOG caused a bit of fun at Skiach heading south but no doubt that has already been noted and a Cunning Plan will be in place.  

It is supposed to be a bit of a challenge though, let's not forget that.

We went from three in one car to six in two cars this year as I entered my own, all three newcomers decided they were doing it again before we'd even got back to our Sunday night hotel so you are obviously doing something right!

[Velocita Rosso]

On marshaling at Blyth a number of years back, I had a boot full of every conceivable spare from oil to bearings

I have an account with a factor in town and I had quantity of spares on a sale or return basis

I had trouble in runners wanting/willing to pay up as though it was a free supply service 

Not done it since as it was a lot of hard work wasted 

My answer to the original query....continue as we have already done in the past, carry your own spares, rely on passing runners just to enquire of well being and keep the recovery truck number to hand.....Its all part of the fun 

[GT64fun]

Team 134 Ian & Gary GT6 Mk2

This was our second time on the event.

It felt easier this time due to familiarisation with the event, elevated confidence due to the car not delivering any curved balls on the eve of the event as in 2016, but overall a slight dilution of the thrill of the first time. (I’m sure everyone remembers their first time !)

Road book this year is a fantastic super professional production, thank you Nigel.

On most legs we had the Garmin satnav running with postcode as the destination and ending up arguing with the Garmin lady as we diverted from her route. She also freaked out when we went over the new Firth road bridge, as we hadn’t updated the software.

Wetherby was better than Bythe I think (except the weather) and there was still a good concentration of cars despite the increased distance from the start.

I loved Carter Bar control, a drive through layby at midnight, miles from anywhere with just a friendly pair of Triumph marshals and then on into the night….fantastic stuff!

Didn’t get much ‘sense of place’ at Knockhill Circuit and would have preferred queuing in the car park, rather than repeatedly hill starting in a queue in the entrance.

We didn’t hang about at JOG due to the weather and missed out on our planned GT6Mk1, 2 & 3 photo-opportunity, which slightly diluted the experience, compared to last time.

Disappointed to find the route south of Monmouth onto the A466 was blocked by road works (I recall we had problems here two years ago), but our satnav route down the A449 and the M5 worked OK.

At Land’s End the breakfast queue (and the breakfast actually) was disappointing and why everyone has to queue outside on a cold October morning is beyond comprehension. Are we expected to do that if it is pi**ing with rain? The service was a masterclass in inefficiency and the two lads serving were totally unaware of their whingeing in front of customers about how hard they were working. A trip to JOG to show how it can be done, might be suggested (it’s only 800 miles).

Turweston felt a bit out of the way and not sure we appreciated the long bumpy tour around the perimeter road.

Trying to avoid the advised hold ups on the A5, saw us diverting from the published route and the published diversion, but actually worked OK as we threw ourselves on the mercy of my Google maps phone satnav, the Garmin lady having earlier lost the plot on the approach to Turweston. We started the leg in convoy with Banshee Bancroft, enjoying a B road blast but bottled out when we hit the A5 and the speeds went up. Traditional navigation is more challenging as it gets dark and the little grey cells were getting a bit strained by then and the Guinness was calling (we were pleased to arrive at Knebworth just in front of Tim, so must have got something right)

Overall a fantastic event and weren’t we lucky with the weather again !

Ian

[andy thompson]

Hi Tim,

I'm not sure if it was peculiar to this year but we seemed to be hanging around a lot waiting to leave controls - in particular Skiach? I'm really not sure if this wasn't just because for once we had no problems and always seemed to be towards the front of the 'pack'.

No issues with the route - the Welsh roads south of  Welshpool were great as usual and I actually loved the enforced Scottish detour along the A836 (Loch Loyal) - it gave a new perspective on the Highlands and I preferred the road - less blind brows.

Hope I can make the next one and thanks for all your hard work. The sweeper idea is great in theory but I think was just a lucky one off due to Dougs misfortune!?

 

[Saltddirk]

Do we have to change anything?

We only made one control in time this year, so i can not speak of the other new controls, nor of the traffic jams leaving or entering...

The route seems to be tuned to a fine point, and I do agree that faster roads are available which is good for us in the slow end of the pack to try and make up some time, as example we have completelly bypassed the A68 this year, driving up to Newcastle and then to Carter bar. Same for the wales sections, in our car they are not too enjoyable especially at night, so I was glad to see sugarloaf being dropped, but a sad we have not had the opportunity to test the new sections.

Having a sweeper might be tempting, but IMO against the spirit of the RBRR, and then who would have spares to get a gloria going again. Being forced to do roadside repairs is time consuming so even if a skilled mechanic team comes along time lost will probably mean you wont be able to make the controls in time. For me part of the challenge is to get the car round without assistance, even if we have failed to do so this year. With a sweeper/ mechanics I get a vision of Mille Miglia set up's where there are more assistance than runners.

Just keep the spirit where one stops if he sees a bonnet up and try to assists. 

D

[Tim Bancroft]

Sweeper Car:

Andy Pearce suggested this years ago and we decided against it as it seemed to be wrong, spirit of the event and all that.

However, this year we suffered a lot of retirements, some could have been avoided if parts had been available. So maybe not so much a sweeper vehicle than a mobile parts vehicle where the rew just hand out the parts, get paid and then continue leaving the car's crew to sort. This would hopefully mean that we would only need one sweeper/parts vehicle. However, maybe just to give out parts and not help may be considered mean???

I have received an email from a crew who are very much against the idea of this...what to do!

Turweston: Probably not again.

 

Lands End: Just cannot get them to understand that they need to feed many and therefore need to use more staff....We would happily pay more for a more efficient service....Jeez! I have now been the principle behind 8 RBRRs and LE has never been that brill., apart from the year when I sought an alternative at a local golf club, who then let us down on the eve of the event and I had to go back to LE with my tail between my legs and they were fantastic...ironical or what!

Badgers Holt: Fantastic location, but as Howard quite rightly states, its in the wrong place! The Sunday drive onwards from LE would make real sense to be A30, M5, A30, A303, M3, M25, A1(M). 

As I have written, I really would like to take the event away from modern motorway service areas (bar Tebay), there must be some decent alternatives we can use. 

How does everyone feel about the entry numbers?

 

 

[Howard]

Quoted from timbancroft61-

Badgers Holt: Fantastic location, but as Howard quite rightly states, its in the wrong place! The Sunday drive onwards from LE would make real sense to be A30, M5, A30, A303, M3, M25, A1(M).

Just to clarify I am not suggesting changing the recommended route but only removing the control point so people running late could bypass Dartmoor

[richard w]

Hi Tim

Mixed feelings about the sweeper car. Having Doug and Katie with us at the start was a big help. Also we would have struggled to get my car back to the car park and swapped into Dave's without them. Following that, knowing that they were behind us up the A1 was a big morale boost.

However - having said that I can appreciate the argument that a sweeper car is against the ethos of a reliability run. Maybe if someone is willing to do the job they can be encouraged and helped, but don't make it an essential part of the run.

Turweston - won't tell you what we called it. Safe to say we weren't fans of this one! Personally I think that after Pimperne crews should be free to make their own way back to the finish.

Badgers Holt, Badgers Mount or Shagging Badgers as it became known - either this or Bude probably could be dropped. Shame as they're both decent stops but make too much of a zigzag heading East.

Land's End breakfast - rubbish as was the service. They could learn so much from the Seaview. Don't know what to suggest other than just having a passage control there and letting everyone source their own food - trouble with that is finding somewhere open on a Sunday morning. 

Entry numbers - too high. I know I'm a relative newcomer but I thought that 2014 with, I think, about 105 starters was better than the last 2 with 135ish.

Please don't take any of my comments as moaning as such, it's a brilliant event and more challenging than any other. There will always be highs and lows, that's part of what makes it so good. 

Thank you Tim and everyone else for all the work you put into it.

[Clive]

Re entry numbers, I think there is a strong argument to try to accommodate as many as possible. But maybe (and I have no idea how) get people to do a bit more in the way of prep? I know DL does the phone calls, but how about a mentor system? That would not be too arduous if say 20 or so volunteers could be recruited? That way noobies could get a few calls, or even visits etc??

The lovely thing about Sunday is it starts with breakfast, then a cuppa at Bude, and although Badgers Holt is a bit of a pain, again refreshments available. Then of course the pinnacle at Pimperne. Seems a lot of people (me especially) overstay. After that it  is downhill. But as people start to tire in the afternoon, it would seem a good idea to put a stop of some description in, it encourages a short break, driver swap and chance to stretch legs. Could be as simple as a motorway (type) service station? But take too many controls out and it almost loses some of the events essence. 

Please take my ramblings with a large pinch of salt....

[Radders]

Agree with Richard Warr on Western Turdville as we called it. Felt that it was an unnecessary 'out of the way' control after 2 days without sleep. The drive from there to Knebworth wasn't fun either and seemed to take ages. 

Echo the comments of others as well that the catch up time on Sunday if having problems can be a real issue. If we'd have known we were going to be in the queue for brekky at Lands End for 40 mins, we'd have skipped it and cracked on. (It wasn't really worth the wait anyway)

Brilliant event still though, and we (both cars) had already decided Sunday night that we were all up for it again in 2020. 

Preferred the event when it was around the 100 car mark, although on this one we were running so far behind all the time that the queues at the controls didn't affect us much. (Except LE)

P.s. Wetherby to Skiach without a coffee stop was hard too-will bring a flask next time)  =)  

Other than that, still a fantastic event and wouldn't miss it for the world. 

 

 

 

[Greta]

I know tradition has the RBRR start and finish near London - but routeing back to Knebworth / Potters Bar etc seems to have it's own peculiar frustrations re congested motorways etc.

Would a more central start & finish open up wider options? Bicester, Gaydon, Coventry could all be alternative start & finishes..

This might allow Dartmoor westward at first light - get to LE when more staff are available to service a slightly later breakfast and allow a route north of Bude on Sunday morning via A39 Exmoor A39 - A361 or A429 and give new halts at places like Glastonbury, Bath, Marlborough, Moreton in the Marsh ?? This would also lend itself to having a more central ( service control ) to which strugglers could perhaps cut to & from mid event.

The last thing I want to do is trample on hallowed ground - I'm massively indebted to all that make this happen; in the past, this year and for years to come - it just seems that there are some who are casting around for new ideas - these will inevetiably bring changes resisted by some. For team 24 - both newbies, we thought the whole thing was great and have no criticisms worth voicing.

I do suspect there are many put off entering by the distance from their own home to start & then the same to return - and by those unable to sleep enroute mindful of the dangers of driving sleepy. I personally find the tedium of motorway driving very tiresome - but conversely great for catching up on sleep while not navigating!

[RobPearce]

As others have said, neither Bude not Badgers Holt are bad places to stop but... well, I remember the days before we had either of them as controls and I'd be OK with going back to that.

There was one year we didn't have breakfast at LE (it was essentially a PC and breakfast was a little later - can't remember exactly where). As I recall, the breakfast venue wasn't all that much better organised but the principle seemed to work OK. That would allow the LE/PC to be earlier, meaning the Saturday night could be shifted to adjust the timing bias a bit, especially as the loss of Morrisons makes Tebay attractive as a "grab some supper" venue.

As Clive said, the only downside of Pimperne is the temptation to overstay, although with *everyone* running late by that point it's maybe a bit moot.

I can't offer anything helpful on reducing attrition. Clive's probably right about more prep but, on the other hand, ALL of my prep this year was on the car we didn't use and the GT6 that's had no attention all year performed almost faultlessly.

[PeteStupps]

As a first-timer I have nothing to compare it to, and if it remained exactly the same in future I would be happy. It was a tremendous experience.

However my ha'penny worth: 

- Numbers didn't seem a problem for us, except a queue at Wetherby, but we were at the back of the pack pretty much all the way. Fewer cars means more disappointed people not being able to enter! I can see why the event grows because I definitely want to do it again, and obviously there has to be a limit. 

- John O'Groats was a masterclass at mass catering: sit anywhere and they threw a plate of food at you. Land's End was the wrong way of doing it quickly (although me and co-pilot had no complaints about the food).

- Please don't make us drive round that Turweston perimeter 'road' again. That's the only thing I would moan about. 

- Sweeper van: a lot of friends and workmates asked me if there were support vehicles and were impressed when I said no! So I get the argument about it being against the spirit of the event. Spares van: if someone is prepared to do it then it would be a good safety net. 

As said above, overall it was an incredible experience. Many thanks for organising it!

[Clive]

My internal clock has gone all out of sync....anyway been thinking about support vehicles. Darren Sharp was carrying just about everything from what he was posting. But I reckon most of the breakaowns were the usual stuff. Water pumps, bearings (RWB on a herald is not exactly a quick fix by the side of the road, but I do know people have carried spare shafts in the past) and distributor stuff all prime candidates. Some things are simply not roadside fixes, but with a little thought most "common" failure parts could be carried and documented between a number of vehicles. And if there is anything unique/unusual (I use the small denso alternators on my cars) the entrant ought to think about carrying their own spare. I pinched the alternator off my spitfire and popped in the boot of the Toledo.

So although a sweeper van has merits, I think spares in the runners cars but some way of documenting may be the way forward. How about an online document? I know it has been trialled, but maybe a co-ordinator to encourage people to enter the spares they are carrying? This year I got a phone call in Scotland (I think!) asking about Dolomite brake pads. So the entrant had the sense to look up dolomite/toledo cars and give them a call, and that actually worked via another car. But time could have been saved if we knew whichcar had the spare pads. If that makes sense.

 

Again, just ideas...

[thescrapman]

I try to take anything that rotates. Well that rotates and will fit in the boot!

Looking through the failures I have picked up....

mis-fuels - ban use of BP stations?

Waterpump - fixable

Carb diaphragm-fixable

seized Dizzy - side effects may have been fixable with time 

loosenflywheel - terminal

implodded engines - terminal

rearbwheel bearing - long fix?

Alternator - fixable

Fried electrics - bodgeable? Think not this time?

gearbox oil leak - time consuming fix?

Steering rack - terminal?

clutch pipe - unsure?

 

 

[Steve28]

Having  read through these comments  regarding the carrying of spares has got me thinking shouldn't crews be encouraged to carry more spares themselves then parts are there ready to fit as and when required without the waiting time for parts to get to you also saving time to be able to get to the next sign in without the risk of speeding to do so, i have seen in the past some crews carry as little as a few tools in a bag and more or less just plugs and points and be lucky enough to not have a breakdown, but from my own experience on my 1st RBRR i didnt have the parts i needed but managed to swap a gallon of oil for  a replacement battery for my dead one and i also needed an alternator but couldn't get a reply from 3 numbers on the entrants list and had to retire  so now always carry those two items every time plus many more. Another thought comes to mind not wanting to sound selfish what if you gave a part that you are carrying yourself to another crew  but then needed it later on on the run for your own car ? .

STEVE

[Clive]

Yes, I think the fixable issues are the ones to consider,and accept that there are times when you just have to get the recovery number up on the phone. But looking at colins list, much of the fixable stuff is small, add alternator/front wheel bearing(+grease!) and I even carried a 100m roll of 17A wire (I was going to cut a 5m length off to take, but had plenty of space so chucked the roll in)

So should we all carry an alternator/waterpump and so on? I don't think we need to, but if there are a few carried between cars that should cover it. Difficulty is when you are in a fairly unusual car...(sorry Dirk!)

Engine/major component failures are often impossible to predict, but using quality lubricants and so on can help. As can confidence gained by practice runs. The organisers are always going in about that and with good reason....