Type 12 or 14??

[Scimher]

Today, in the lovely weather, I painted the front footwells of Little Sis - (tomorrow, hopefully, the rear ones!) I also took some photos of the front, nearside brake assembly & wonder whether you, very kind, experts, can tell me whether she has Type 12 or 14 front brakes............I'm pretty certain they're 14, but can't remember....I didn't take any measurements, I'm afraid.  

[glang]

Ha, not sure what the calipers are but think the brakes could probably perform better! Although its hard to tell from the photos I would like to see the disc more uniformly worn...

Also I hope theres an axle stand as well as the jack under the car somewhere😳

[RobPearce]

That looks like the later type suspension which should have type 14 calipers, but we'd need close-ups of the calipers themselves to see what's cast into them.

[Scimher]

The brakes could certainly perform better - despite front discs the brakes are dreadful..!! Currently, the offside front brake binds occasionally, although having done several short runs in the last few days, it does seem to have improved things. I was going to hand her over to pro.pal, Andy to revitalise the whole braking system but skilled amateur pal, Mike thinks we could clean & recondition the calipers - the jury is still out at the moment!

On this occasion there is no axle stand, purely & simply because I was careful to keep from getting my head under the car when taking the photos, so there was no more risk than there is changing a wheel after a puncture at the roadside... 

[Scimher]

Although it is likely she rolled out of Canley in Oct./Nov. of '64, Rob, & was registered for the road on a 'C' plate in early Feb. of '65, she is very much a 'bitsa'....I did try to do a search on here as to the differences in 12 & 14 types but it threw up a whole raft of threads about everything. I vaguely recall that the difference can be ascertained by how something is attached....with the vertical link being mentioned??

[RobPearce]

Yes, the vertical link you show is a five-point star with a steering arm bolted to centre and front, the caliper to the rear two spokes. That's the late type which would have taken a type 14 caliper. The type 12 were mostly fitted on the "converted from drums" type vertical link, which is narrower and takes an adapter plate for the caliper mounting. Just to confuse matters, the 2L cars had an arrangement that looks very much like the type 12 one but were fitted with type 16 calipers.

[Scimher]

Thanks, Rob - so I can take it that these are Type 14 front brakes then......I was pretty sure that they were but it is so long since anything was done to the brakes - (they desperately need some attention now, though!)...Can the Type 16 calipers that you mention be substituted for the Type 14?

[RobPearce]

No, not easily. I have type 16s on my Spitfire but did so by fitting complete GT6 front suspension.

[glang]

Sorry really do think you should have used an axle stand😌

With the caliper change the type 16 fitted to the Vitesse or GT6 have different fixing hole spacing so cant be used however it might be possible to use type 16 from a Ford. Needs to be confirmed but I think these have the same spacing. However, unless youre going to be driving particularly hard, many owners find the existing brakes in 100% condition perfectly acceptable... 

[Scimher]

Thanks, gentlemen - Type 14 it is then.......At least I know what replacement parts I need to order...

Re. 'axle stand' - I tend to agree.......especially after reading, a good few years ago, that an average of 20 people per annum die under jacked-up vehicles........you can't be too careful. In mitigation, I can say that the rear wheels were chocked, handbrake on & in-gear & the (good quality) trolley jack had a substantial piece of wood between it & the front chassis member to spread the load & she was parked on level concrete at the top of friend's drive....Also he was close-by....She was jacked just long enough to get the wheel off, have a few quick pics. taken & then wheel back on & back on all-four. I was careful re. positioning & had I had to get under her for any reason, most certainly an axle-stand would have been employed...😄

[glang]

I would way up the costs and difficulties of overhauling the calipers against getting exchange recon ones. Although it hurt I opted for the second on my car and got to say it was very easy just swopping them over... 

[Scimher]

Yes, I think by the time you get a service kit, etc., it hardly seems worth it - the old ones can go to whoever for reconditoning......The front, offside one has a propensity to stick on......

[glang]

Yes almost certainly they'll need new pistons and then you might find the bores are corroded as well - its makes you realise the importance of changing brake fluid regularly as, apart from potentially affecting braking performance, the moisture it absorbs attacks the internals...  

[Scimher]

Yes - new callipers ...(& let the old ones go for reconditioning - might even get a couple of quid for them........& they can then get knocked out to someone else!) On ebay there is a kit that includes a fitting kit & one that doesn't have it - I presume it is better to get a new fitting kit with new callipers, is it? I shall have all 4 brake hoses replaced.......Ideally, I suppose new callipers should be matched with new discs, should they not?..........I'm thinking of this kit - have any of you purchased this in the past....& then get 2 rear hoses from somewhere.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Triumph-Spitfire-or-Herald-type-14-front-Brake-Kit-calipers-pads-discs-hoses/184260940894

[RobPearce]

I've never replaced discs when changing calipers (well, apart from the Spitfire, which was a conversion). It's a question of whether your existing discs need changing. They look a little worn from the photo and slightly uneven, so perhaps they do.

As to the "full kit" option, I'd say it depends what quality of hoses and pads they've used. Many people on another forum would say "avoid the generic ones" and only use Mintex pads. I prefer Goodrich hoses. So if it were me I'd get all the parts separately to ensure I got the ones I want.

Mind you, I've also reconditioned my own calipers in the past (for the Spitfire) and it wasn't that bad a job. I did just buy new for the Vitesse but partly because I didn't have access to my blast cabinet or compressor (or half my other tools) at the time.

[glang]

Looking at the main suppliers theres about a tenners difference between a recon and new caliper so by the time you pay the return postage pretty much the same. The only difference is that recon should be an original casing while new are pattern parts and also Im not sure if your old items can be rejected if theyre too damaged....

As your exisiting system hasnt had a lot of love I think new hoses and discs is a good idea.

That ebay kit price needs to be compared with the main suppliers (Paddock and Canley?) as the latter should be more reliable. Also I dont like the brake pads they come with as I fitted them (type 16) and they were hopeless on braking so I 'upgraded' to EBC Greenstuff and they were not much better. The thinking is that those modern materials are just not suitable for old braking systems so I got some new old stock asbestos pads and the difference was huge. Alternatively if this worries you many people recommend Mintex (1144 not standard) pads although these are considerably more expensive!

[thescrapman]

Do the remade type 14 have the same sticky pistons issue as the type 16?

[Scimher]

Once again, thank you, gentlemen........I shall do a search for 'NOS' brakepads....or the Mintex ones seem to be the way to go. Oh no, Colin - I have a sticking piston, currently, with the offside calliper: I certainly don't want to splurge on new callipers & find the same thing happening! I think I'll give 'Bigg Red' a ring, down Worcester way, & see what they say & can offer....

[glang]

Check but these look like the ones. I believe they have quite a strict bedding in process that has to be followed...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MGB533-M1144-Mintex-Racing-Pads-fits-Caterham-Ford-Escort-Triumph-Front/154386404694?hash=item23f2259556:g:5d4AAOxyqOxRqhOI

[RobPearce]

The issue Colin refers to relates to the seal quality or fitment, it's not clear which.

The theory is that the piston seal should have just enough "give" to let the pad engage and disengage, but any more movement than strictly necessary for brake operation will cause the piston to slide through the seal. Thus the resting position is with the pads "just about touching" the disc and all your pedal effort goes into clamping them to stop you.

The re-manufactured type 16s are set up so that the seal has too much flex, I think, which means the piston doesn't slide and the pads back off too far. The result is a spongy pedal that feels like you haven't bled the brakes properly.

I think all the references I've seen to this were on type 16 calipers, so the 14s may be OK.

[glang]

Yes according to another Triumph site its the repro calipers themselves (only type 16 reported so far) that have the seal housing incorrectly machined so that the seal grips the piston too tightly. Mine were replaced with no problem about 5 years ago but I did go for exchange so presumably got originals back... 

[Scimher]

I think those Mintex ones would be overkill for what my little car does - my pro. pal described her braking as 'suggestive' a few years back....& given I need throttle control to reduce engine rattle in top gear when accelerating, I tend to keep her about 55 max...

Glad that the problem doesn't seem to with the Type 14 brakes...

[ferny]

Mintex is the only way to go at the moment and the best part is that you can feel them improve when slowing. They don't require any special or technical bedding in procedure. I'm on my second set of 1144's which are about to be replaced by 1155's. I've been through cheap pads, EBC Greenstuff, Pagid and asbestos. Asbestos were similar to 1144 pads but more linear. They also faded with heat just the same as 1144 do, with spirited driving I might add.

 

Your discs look beyond shot and almost as thin as the bodywork. You should be able to lock up the wheels if the brakes are working correctly. 

[glang]

Yes dont forget you probably havent got a servo fitted so its very easy to not apply enough pressure to the brake pedal in our cars so to compensate you want the best pads possible. Either that or get working on those quadriceps and be ready to use them but then take great care when driving your modern😁

[Scimher]

So the discs need replacing as well, Peter - I feared as much.....What with the replacement steering rack to be professionally fitted..(thanks, Antonia!!)..along with the brakes overhauled & a new set of tyres, it's going to get expensive! C'est la vie! She's been a much loved, faithful servant for the last 12+yrs. & 30k+ miles. She's lived outside & been used all-the-year-round - so she's owed some TLC.

Definitely have no servo but that's no problem - at 6'3"ish & around 17stone, I can apply a reasonable amount of pressure to the brake pedal, if necessary!!......As well as a '71 Scimitar SE5, I've got a 2003 MG TF 115 at the moment............but there's no problem swapping between them. The TF will be sold when I've got the little Herald sorted...