safeguarding the future of the RBRR

[Velocita Rosso]

Quoted from AAC567X

<Twopenn'orth>

I haven't done the RBRR (yet) but for 10 winters I used to regularly drive coaches between Calais and the alpine ski resorts.
Legally, the most a two driver team in a PCV can drive is 10 hours each during a 21 hour period. They must then have 9 hours rest.
Although the maximum continuous driving period is 4½ hours, I found that 2½ on / 2½ off (x4) with a shared 1 hour meal break after 2 turns gave the best compromise for not getting over-tired behind the wheel and having a sound sleep in the crew seat.
I never arrived in Austria/Switzerland/Italy too tired to function, indeed often was last to bed on the first night in the hotel.
The above regulations do not apply to private vehicles, but obviously provide good guidance to build on.
I would suggest that the above pattern, but with 2 hour breaks after each 10 hours, could provide sufficient rest for experienced drivers to safely complete 48 hours. As always, personal circumstances and preferences will vary.

With regard to the issue of some teams having an extra 500/600 miles to complete every year, how about moving the start point along by one checkpoint every time the event occurs?

<Twopenn'orth>

As previously stated....we drive to our abilities relating fatigue tired-ness ...or pure, out and out enjoyment,whichever you wish to call it
Before long the general public will be having to set off three days early for that holiday in Cornwall, as it would be wrong to drive such a long distance without having have a nap/rest/snooze...(imagine the snooze police pulling private drivers up and asking...."you had a nap sir?")
Just leave the event as it is ....and as said previous just drive sensibly

[AAC567X]

Quoted from Dannyb

The only Start point suitable is the Start.

There must be hundreds of suitable places to start and finish. Its only 200 cars, not 2,000. They might not be at the existing checkpoints, but fairly close by. Many attractions would welcome a spectacular event such as the RBRR start and finish as a finalé to their season.

[AAC567X]

Quoted from JohnD

I know that 'daily rest' may be taken in the cab - that's why many trucks have a bunk compartment, but does the driver on a break have a sleep somewhere?
Do your long distance coaches have bunks for the off-duty driver?  

JOhn

<off topic>

PCV and LGV practices differ, as do the interpretations of the regulations by DVSA, employers and drivers. Daily rest is one of those disputed areas. Employers (especially haulage companies) will insist that rest can be taken in a vehicle, as they do not want to bear the extra cost of proper accommodation. Many (coach) drivers are equally certain that daily rest can not be taken on board because if the coach is stationary the passengers will be in a hotel and the on-board bunk (if one is fitted) is "unsuitable".

The relevant quotes from publication 375 "Rules on Drivers' Hours and Tachographs" are:

"A rest is an uninterrupted period where a driver may freely dispose of his time. Time spent working in other employment or under obligation to, or instruction from, an employer regardless of the employment type, can not be counted as rest."

and

"Daily rest may be taken in a stationary vehicle, as long as it has suitable sleeping facilities."

As far as rest during the day is concerned:

Statutory breaks should be taken "when the driver is free to recuperate" and may only be on a moving vehicle "provided no other work (such as navigation) is undertaken".

Advice from DVSA officers is that during dual manning the person in the crew seat can take the first 45 minutes after changeover as a break.

With respect to your other points:

Fewer coaches have bunks now. Although it can't be described as sound sleep, dozing in the crew seat for a couple of hours is enough to recover for the same amount of time behind the wheel.

</off topic>

David.

[AAC567X]

Quoted from ferny

It's a good idea. The problem lays with needing to be at John O'Groats and Lands End for breakfasts. The reasons for being there at those times are a mixture of tradition and helping control the route. If you stager the start locations but continue to start the event at 6pm, you'll alter the times you're driving on some roads. That impacts both the average speed and safety on the single track roads around the lochs in Scotland and going through Dartmoor.

Thank you for that informative reply with more rational reasons than simply "nothing else will do". Does the need to be at LE & JoG at sunrise preclude a start at the current halfway point and a reversal of the route to "clockwise"?

[Wilfrid]

This event has been successfully organised for fifty years, has provided enjoyable classic car driving for hundreds of Club Triumph members and others and has raised large sums for charity, including over £90,000 this year for Guide Dogs. As a previous organiser and participant in 14 runs I suggest - leave it alone! And leave it to the experienced organising team to keep it going on its traditional course. This discussion, particularly when people who have never done it or even seen it are concerned, should cease forthwith!

[DaveKent]

At last, someone prepared to say  "if it's not for you, then don't do it"  its quite simple really!!

This IS the event; please look carefully at the rules, the guidelines, the times, the start and finish points, the route etc, THEN consider very carefully if YOU are able/prepared to meet those requirements.

You have only two options:

1, Yes I am willing to try.

2 No I'm not up to that



For option 1 the next step is "Enter".

For option 2 the next step is "Don't enter".

Option 3 (I wish to change it to suit me) is not actually an option; it does not feature in the options list and should therefore not be chosen in case of ridicule.

[Roger Keys]

Im with these two ^^^^^^^

Tinkering round the edges is going to happen. Totally changing the event however is something else entirely.

[Alex]

If it's not broke then why fix it?
If people are looking for change why don't they just re invent the wheel or something?

[GT64fun]

Dave has nailed it!.

We knew it was bonkers, but did it and loved it and will probably do it again in 2018.

Ian F
Team 92

[Velocita Rosso]

Quoted from GT64fun

Dave has nailed it!.

We knew it was bonkers, but did it and loved it and will probably do it again in 2018.

Ian F
Team 92

And....events in between?
Which are just as bonkers,sometimes

[AAC567X]

Quoted from Wilfrid

As a previous organiser and participant in 14 runs I suggest - leave it alone! And leave it to the experienced organising team to keep it going on its traditional course. This discussion, particularly when people who have never done it or even seen it are concerned, should cease forthwith!

As its obvious that there are people who don't understand the messages that they are responding to or the purpose of discussion, perhaps the use of the forum should cease forthwith. Let's leave everything to the same long-standing Club officers and don't offer new ideas or energy, after all "nanny knows best".

[Velocita Rosso]

Quoted from AAC567X

As its obvious that there are people who don't understand the messages that they are responding to or the purpose of discussion, perhaps the use of the forum should cease forthwith. Let's leave everything to the same long-standing Club officers and don't offer new ideas or energy, after all "nanny knows best".

YOU HAVE PM

[Velocita Rosso]

Quoted from AAC567X

Let's leave everything to the same long-standing Club officers and don't offer new ideas or energy, after all "nanny knows best".

Strong, response.....you have PM with suggestions
There`s plenty of club positions you can volunteer for or assist in unpaid club work

[Clive]

I must say that new ideas do come from organisers  and club officers. There is a good bunch of people involved with experience and knowledge. And they understand what the event is about.

Most of what has been said on this thread has been said before, from both sides. What the people who want major changes to the event don't really get is that changing the basics is not viable. The event is the round britain in 48 hours, It has not had a poor history of accidents, especially when you consider the actual total mileage driven. This year over 270000 miles on the event, plus to and from will add another 10K I expect. So 30 years of driving for the average motorist.

Changing starts time/general location, again not viable.

Add to that the amount of time it takes already out of volunteers lives, anything extra would be a huge ask. (though I am certain it would happen IF it were an improvement or requirement)

Best advice, if you want to do the event, do it. If you have concerns about tiredness, do it as a team of 3, which is exactly what I have done. Worst part for me was Friday night/saturday pre-dawn. After that got into a good sleep routine.

[Raider]

Well an event that moves it's start point each time is an interesting idea and it happens now with the Historic Counties Run.

That's also only one overnight too so it's not the RBRR, it is it's own event in it's own right which should suit more people.

Then there's the Border Raiders as a two day tour with no long days, schedule to hit and a hotel for the overnight. Again another event which has it's own character.

Not forgetting the 10CR which generally has different start points and is evolving into best part of a week tour with hotel stops.

So there's plenty of choice and the RBRR  is what it is. That's why I  have done 4 and nowadays put something back in by marshaling.

[Velocita Rosso]

Quoted from Raider

Well an event that moves it's start point each time is an interesting idea and it happens now with the Historic Counties Run.

That's also only one overnight too so it's not the RBRR, it is it's own event in it's own right which should suit more people.

Then there's the Border Raiders as a two day tour with no long days, schedule to hit and a hotel for the overnight. Again another event which has it's own character.

Not forgetting the 10CR which generally has different start points and is evolving into best part of a week tour with hotel stops.

So there's plenty of choice and the RBRR  is what it is. That's why I  have done 4 and nowadays put something back in by marshaling.

The most important fact being missed.....
If its so wrong, tiring etc, ....why has entry levels gone up by so much over the years, from a handful of cars and increased each year until this year there was over 150 entrants(albeit it some pulled out prior due to mechanical problems)
So somebody is doing something right for the entry levels to increase year by year?
....but the main criticism of the event coming from members/non members who have never done the major CT events such as RBRR  

[mikew]

The RBRR has existed and run since 1965, its always been a similar format - starts in London, goes to John O'Groats, Lands End and back to London.

Its evolved, its had too, but change it substantially and it won't be the RBRR.

If people want an event that is different, then they should create one, after all they don't have to do the RBRR ! - there's plenty enough who do want to do it as it is, as the BEST Club Driving event in the world

Leave the RBRR to evolve naturally, if it ain't broke don't mend it

[JohnD]

In the TRR, people are contemplating reviving their Jubilee JoG to LE run:  http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/59458-john-ogroats-to-lands-end/?hl=lands

Which seems cup-half-full to me, at both ends!
JOhn

[GT64fun]

Just imagine doing that if you lived near Knebworth 😀

IanF

[thescrapman]

Looks like that is in themembers only area...

[Dale]

Speaking as something of an old g*t whose first of 15 to date RBRRs took place back in the eighties (that's the nineteen eighties before anyone says owt!), I think I've done enough to get a bit of a handle on things. On the very first one of these in 1984 I believe, I was stopped by police whilst driving a mate's Vitesse on the M6 in Cumbria. The only reason was curiosity, as we weren't exactly first in line at the time due largely to no overdrive, not any misdemeanour on my part. Apart from making reasonable enquiries then rather less reasonable ones after the questions "Where are you travelling from?" and "Where are you going?" had been answered honestly with "London" and "London" with "Via John o' Groats and Land's End" added by way of explanation, the officer in question then added that he didn't much like the idea of us driving all that way nearly non-stop. I won't go into all the ins and outs here but as you can see even then there were some people in positions of authority who didn't much like the event and it's 'Endurance' aspect, so John's initial point is highly relevant now as it seems it also was, albeit  unbeknownst to him then as well.

Of my runs to date about half have been in 3 person crews and half 2 person. I can tell you that the 3 person runs have all been much easier but that the 2 man runs were OK too as we knew exactly what we were getting ourselves into and prepared/rested better beforehand. It's when things start going wrong that having the extra person makes the real difference but there's no reason why a 2 person crew can't succesfully finish the event without being shattered. The point about suddenly running out of adrenaline and nodding off halfway home though is valid and if I wasn't fortunate enough to live so close to the start/finish I wouldn't be driving home on the Sunday like many others don't too - this is an increasing trend.

Having been involved on the margins of organisation on a few of these too I can tell you that although the basic format may not have changed much (long may that continue - it's a winner) there is a steady process of evolution, not revolution, with this event to account for the changing face of motoring in Britain year on year. The organising team are not chosen because they're someone's mate, they're there because each one of them adds something to the whole and makes it a highly professional, well experienced and most capable team - if you dropped a stink bomb on Westminster and got rid of the government, this team could probably sort out all the 'Brexit' bo***x' before the smoke had cleared - that's how good they are. The new start/finish venue, several route revisions and a couple of new control stops don't just happen because someone fancied a change or because the existing ones told us to naff orf, they're all planned as part of the process to smooth the running of the event and circumvent issues previously noted by experience or research.

With regard to changing the start/finish, moving them around the 'circuit', staggered timings and so forth, these have all been explored before and some at least will be looked at again, but for now at least they simply don't work. If you can't see why that's probably because you haven't spent a considerable time trying to make them work, unlike the organising team, and found out that they actually create more problems than they fix.

So, what to do? For the foreseeable future I would say leave it to the organising team but if you have a concern, ask them about it. If you are considering taking part for the first time, definitely ask them - "This is no Sunday afternoon jolly to the pub" as a wise man once said. Consider buddying up with an experienced crew if you know of or can find one you get on with and especially if you are in a 2 seat or 'virtual 2 seat' car, there may be a way - insurances permitting - to swap between cars in case of severe tiredness if you have sorted the details before you go. Most importantly though, try to adapt to the event as much as you can, prepare as well as you can and enjoy the experience, being happy takes a lot of the stress out of things and if you're not having a good time maybe this one's not for you - don't try to change it, find another event which suits you better.

[Wilfrid]

An admirable summary of the true position and coinciding with what myself and others have been saying over the course of this lengthy discussion which I hope will now cease so that the organising team can get on with doing what they have always done - keep the event running  on its traditional lines and at the same time incorporating those few amendments as and when they become necessary.

[Tim Bancroft]

I cannot add to Dale and Derek's words, spot on.

We have a RBRR 2016 review meeting in two weeks time, I have invited the organising team, a couple of new to the event people and a few regulars. Hope to come away with some new ideas and thoughts about some changes.

Long live the,er, Evolution!

[Deleted User]

Having spent a long time reading this thread I have to bow to the way this event is run, having taken part in it only three times and successfully completing it twice I can only speak from my little experience. The RBRR is a two day event and until the MSA or otherwise start making it difficult I see it continuing successfully. I have a suggestion and it will remain just that, for the organising and running of this superb event I can not see it changing anytime soon.
My suggestion was to move it into the 22nd century and consider the building of an application for a phone or tablet.
The idea is  to get rid of all the marshalled points replacing with a bar code or QR code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QR_code
At the original check point, That way your entrant can start at any point for example Kinross and can take part in the 48 hour event finishing at Kinross taking in the same route in its entirety being paced by the application itself as times between checkpoints can be set and any the check in to any QR point cannot be done until the application has opened and closed that point at a set time depending where you start on the event.
That way each entrant can start the run and finish the run without travelling to one point to do  the start.
Just an idea and one I think could encourage an unlimited number of cars starting and participating in the event.
The only downside  to the event is the removal of  the breakfast at Lands end and John'o'groats and other manned stops that serve cake etc.
The refreshments could be left to each crew.
The above is  all just a suggestion and not meant to offend anyone.
Rob

[Radders]

Not only would you lose the breakfasts at JOG & LE, but you would also lose the enjoyment and buzz of so many enthusiasts being in the same place at the same time

A massive thing of the RBRR for me personally is meeting everyone at the start and again (hopefully) at the finish. I look forward to the start & finish just so I can meet people that I only normally see on these or similar events.

I think having different start and finish points would lose something special from the event.