glang Posted June 9, 2022 Share Posted June 9, 2022 The UJ needles can be quite fiddly as they either get trapped under the caps or fall out. In the first case you cant get the circlip into the groove and with the second you would have to lose quite a few to make that sound. Youve obviously spun the wheels by hand, back and forth, and not felt any roughness from wheel bearing or UJ? In the garage they might be able to run the car in gear with the wheels off the ground so that each component can be listened to from underneath with a stethoscope or similar... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffds Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 Sounds very much like the hub bearing to me. I had a couple of rollers collapsed! I'll hunt out my video of the resulting noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffds Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 (edited) video Rotational knock.mp4 of my bearing sounds. P S I still have the churhill hub puller 🙂 Edited June 14, 2022 by Jeffds Extra info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 Could you feel any roughness when spinning the wheel by hand Jeff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffds Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 (edited) Yes glang, just at the one point which matched the noise. I got a pair of half shafts for £70 from jjlclassics on ebay which had been in storage for 30 years. 🙂 I then replaced my bearing over a few months! Boy it was tight. There is a thread on tssc about it. Good luck. Edited June 15, 2022 by Jeffds Other thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 (edited) Yes yes yes!! that is exactly my noise but ... I took the left hand half shaft off yesterday to inspect the UJ. This showed no play at all. the only thing of note was that one way was very free to move and the other a bit stiff. Still free moving though. The wheel bearing makes no noise at all and exhibits no roughness in turning like Jeffds describes. However, with the car in the air and the engine running, in second gear, you can see the whole brake drum wobble as if the half shaft were bent. Having taken it off though, I see no evidence that it is. Edit: I see in jeffs Video, the wheel wobbles a bit as well. I have used a stethescope. The problem with this is that I could hear the bonk bonk sound whereever I put it. I thought perhaps it was the wheel bearing because that was quite prominent. Now the left side is off, when the car is running in second gear on the lift, there is no loud sound anymore but I think I can hear with the stethescope the outer bearing on the diff where the half shaft was on. The diff does have a lot of free play in it for my taste. Much more than the old 4,11 version I took off which is still on the shelf. What to do? Given that the UJ seems ok, it makes no sense to replace it - I showed it to an experienced auto mechanic and he agreed. Try and exchange the outer diff shaft with that from my existing 4,11 diff, refit the wheel half shaft and see? Trouble is the old flange arrangement would need changing. 😑 exchange for a new recon diff? Edited June 15, 2022 by Antonnick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffds Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 Concentrate on the wheel bearing. My 'wobble' on the wheel related to collapsed needle roller bearing. Get a churchill puller or a replacement half shaft...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 Antonnick have you tried greasing the wheel bearing as although this probably wont cure the sound it might change it so helping to identify the problem? With the half shaft removed it should be easy to get the differential inner drive shaft out (although you might lose some oil) to inspect its bearing. It does seem a coincidence that you changed the diff and now have this noise especially as its worse when turning which of course is when the units sun and planet gears (these are the little ones which when worn increase the back and forth play in the halfshaft) are in use.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 In light of the comments above, I made another inspection of the half shaft assembly on the bench. Firstly I had been pumping grease into the wheel bearing regularly since I got the car 5 years ago. There is a huge mass accumulated there now to clean up The bearing turns very freely with no hard spot or other hindrances or noises, But........I checked the UJ again. I can just perceive a slight, very slight play on that part of the UJ which is attached to the half shaft itself. So I decided to change it, I have a new spare. Removing the UJ from the half shaft yoke ( this is the right name?) was very easy. It was extremely loose. The flange attachment piece was not so easy. I am using a vice with sockets method. Again replacing the new UJ was easy to the half shaft and when installed, as suggested by Glang before, it turned easily which is obviously wrong. So I have put in some 0,2mm 24 dia washers behind the circlips on each side until it does not turn in the yoke any more. So I am right back to the beginning of the thread from 2011. At the moment I am trying to compress the UJ enough to install both circlips in the flange element piece. Am having trouble here, one is in but the other side cup is not in far enough to expose the groove and allow the circlip to be installed. I have left it compressed in the vice overnight and try again in the morning. We say in German, " nicht den Tag vor dem Abend loben" , but I am cautiously optimistic that after all the fuss and trials and my speculation about the diff etc that indeed this IS the solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 Not sure I like the sound of the halfshaft yoke allowing the UJ cups to be so loose! The cups should need some pressure from the sockets youre using to push into place then the washers are to keep the cups against the UJ spider to keep it centred. If not then the cups can move in the yokes to produce the click sound and, if left long enough, wear the yoke as yours seems to be so that it has to be replaced (usually with a new half shaft)... However unfortunately I cant see what you have described could produce the noise youre getting and think its looking more and more likely to be a diff problem🙁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 Perhaps I left a wrong impression? The cups did need pressure to drive them into the halfshaft yoke but once in, one cup continued to turn inside the yoke. I noticed then, that on one side the cup is not fully home to even allow the circlip to seat itself properly. DEspite a lot of pressure in the vice, I cannot compress it enough to get the circlip into its recess. This is the same on the flange side. I am wondering whether the UJ I am using is the right one? Maybe I need to more pressure somehow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 No, there shouldnt be so much pressure required. Are you sure that a needle hasnt moved while putting the cap on and is now trapped between the cap and spider? This can happen easily even if you are very careful.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffds Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 I agree with Glang, you have a loose needle! Caps off and inspect I'm afraid 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPearce Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 10 hours ago, Antonnick said: The cups did need pressure to drive them into the halfshaft yoke but once in, one cup continued to turn inside the yoke. The cups shouldn't really turn in the yoke - at least not easily - even before the circlips are applied. If loose, it suggests wear on the yoke and could explain a rhythmic knocking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 1 hour ago, glang said: No, there shouldnt be so much pressure required. Are you sure that a needle hasnt moved while putting the cap on and is now trapped between the cap and spider? This can happen easily even if you are very careful.... oh dear. Ok I will try again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 (edited) I am a fool. I ignored the advice and...... refitted the half shaft even though I could see that one of the circlips was not really seated properly in the yoke. Result - bang-bang-bang afte only a few metres driving. Took the half shaft assembly off again yesterday. The clip that was not seated properly had come off of course and is lying on the road somewhere. Yes Mr Glang was right again ( and Jeffds as well) One of the needle bearings in a cup had misplaced itself preventing the cup being fully home. I have now spent all morning trying to fit the UJ into the yoke again. Every time some needles became loose preventing proper seating. Eventually I took off two of the cups from the second UJ spare I had purchased and fitted them...very very carefully and at last the joint is in the yoke properly with no play noticable and no turning of the cups when moving the flange piece. When I think that I had replaced already 3 UJs before , with no problem..... Incidentally , I ran the motor in second gear on the lift with the LHS half shaft removed - no noise from the diff or anywhere else. But of course, it was not under load. So that is the yoke done. I am wondering whether the same thing has happened on the flange piece. Not quite sure but maybe one of the circlips is not quite in the groove.? Edited June 18, 2022 by Antonnick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Clasper Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 8 hours ago, Antonnick said: The clip that was not seated properly had come off of course and is lying on the road somewhere. 8 hours ago, Antonnick said: One of the needle bearings in a cup had misplaced itself preventing the cup being fully home These issues seem very common, any tips on preventing them?, as don't appear to be obviously ,fitted incorrectly, when folk have done them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted June 19, 2022 Share Posted June 19, 2022 The internal slots of the yokes need thoroughly cleaning out and access isnt easy so it really needs a sharp right angle tool, something like dentists use. Then both the corners of each slot should be scraped all the way round with the point to ensure nothing is going to stop the circlip from seating as deep as possible. Unfortunately fitting thicker circlips or using spacers to take up any play does increase the chance of this problem happening.... All you can do to try to keep the needles in place during assemble is stick them into the cups with grease. However I do think theres a risk that if too much grease is used the needles can get squished out of place by the spider spigot as it slides into the cup. Obviously the smoother you can do the assembly the less likely it is to dislodge a needle..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPearce Posted June 19, 2022 Share Posted June 19, 2022 Install the cups square and smoothly - using a vice not a hammer! - and make sure the spider goes in centrally. And as glang said, clean the yokes. The needles usually fall out because they get shaken, so holding the whole thing still and applying gentle pressure is the trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drofgum Posted June 19, 2022 Share Posted June 19, 2022 Antonnick, One trick I have heard of to help avoid the problem of knocking a needle out of place is to place the cups in the freezer to chill the grease. That also contracts the cups a small amount which helps them fit into the yokes. Regards, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted June 19, 2022 Share Posted June 19, 2022 Hallo Paul - that is a good tipp! Thankyou. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 With an amount of nervousness I have just made a 10km test drive after refitting the left hand half shaft assembly....again! I did take the half shaft to a retired motor mechanic as I could not get one of the cups to seat properly in the vice. I explained to him that I was worried that one of the needle bearings had become loose. He looked at the assembly and shook his head telling me that if that was the case then you would see something or other. I did not really understand but he proceeded to hit the cup that was not in far enough with a round chisel and persuader hammer and then the circlip fitted ok. I was skeptisch However the test drive revealed that the noise has gone! No more clack-clack to be heard. Rob Pearce, Glang, JeffDs were right all along and that without being able to either hear or see the problem. Respekt! And many many thanks. Antonia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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