Spitfire MKIV Restoration Newbie.

[Sheepy]

If the sills look that bad at the ends, then I would say they are not far off rotting along the seams!

In my experience it would be better and easier to replace them complete, but be aware, when you remove them, you will probably find the sill strengthener and inner sill will probably also be on the way!
If you look at my thread on mk 2 restoration, you will see the car looked ok with no major rust holes in the sills, until we stripped it down, then we see how rotten it was.

Don't want to get you down, but it's better that we are honest with you, so you know what you are getting into, we wish you all the best luck. 🙂 we are here for support!

I think you should find your local c.t. Members, and get one who is familiar with spits to come round and give you some pointers and look at the known trouble spots!

[LouisW]

Ahh, that's alot of a bummer. How much would it cost to replace the sills on both sides? Any other views on this would be appreciated.

[Sheepy]

How long is a piece of string?

It depends who does it, how good they are, how much they charge, how much more rot they find etc etc lots of variables, I.e. they could tell you it will take "x" amount of hours, then ones the sill come off, they may find other bits and the hours increase!
My advice, try to get friendly with another spit owner who has done this job, or a local small friendly garage, then you can offer to do some work for them, cleaning, polishing, making cuppa's, Saturday work etc etc to help pay for the work. 🙂 and also help to do the work on your car!

But keep possative, when you see some of the wrecks that have been restored! Yours is not too bad, it looks saveable.

[thebrookster]

As a worst case scenario, I would budget for the following:

Inner Sill
Outer Sill
Sill Strengthener
Floor Pan
Outer Wing (rear)

This would need to be doubled, so one of each for each side!

Now, it might be you can get away with repair panels for the rear wing, that will depend on how much rust there is.

Sorry to be such a miserable git here, but a few years back I started on a spitfire without realising how bad it was. I kept buying parts, hoping that repair panels would do, then finding they wouldn't, then finding even more rust requiring more new panels.
The end result was I grew sick of the car, and ended up being forced to scrap it as the cost and time available grew far too much for me. Had I known from the start what was entailed, I would have had several other options available to me, such as considering a replacement body tub, or simply having a decent idea of full costs and been able to properly plan a rebuild!

This quite likely leaves you with a serious sinking feeling in your stomach, however I can assure you it is nothing compared to putting several months and a lot of money into a project that outgrows you.

As Shaun rightly says, try and find some local Triumphists, or even just other classic car enthusiasts. I think you said you were 16, so possibly a bit young to pop along to your local area meeting by yourself, but maybe your dad might take you along? Work on a complete worse case scenario, and get costings, and decided what to do where. Study Canleys website, Rimmer Bros etc, and learn which panel is which, and then assume that every panel on your car with rust needs replacing. That will give you a very good idea how much you are looking at for costs. Then find some old shells, and find out how much they cost, I would assume places like Spitfire Graveyard, and smaller Triumph Specialists would be best for that.

Then, armed with full knowledge, you can decide what route is best over all.

Cheers,

Phil

[LouisW]

Ah great.. That wasn't what i was really wanting to hear 🤔 My mum was thinking about just scrapping it anyway which by the sounds of what you're saying would be the best route.

Just from looking at it I didn't think that the rust seemed that bad as the outer sills seemed solid enough.

I'll have words with my brother as he's a mechanic so should be able to provide some insight onto all of this!

Thanks again for all your help , i've got some serious thinking to do as i'd be the one mainly putting the work into it.

[Bradley1500]

Don't scrap it!

I think Phil and Shaun are just trying to outline the worse case scenario.

From my eye I don't think it looks bad at all!

Good luck with the resto.

[junkuser]

There is plenty of time before you need this car finished so no rush decisions required at this stage.
You seem keen to learn about repairing and living with an old car and you have one that would be great to learn on.
Pulling it apart and finding where problems lurk, will arm you well for seeking out another, even if this one is beyond resurrection.
Working on the mechanical bits will teach you a lot also as Spitfire mechanicals are so simple and basic and you will end up with salable bits, even if the worst comes to the worst.
You could well get a lot of satisfaction out of just working on this car, if I judge your attitude correctly.
Just have to make sure Mum is on side and can understand the benefit you can gain from it.

Its great to have a young person interested in old machinery, so please don't be put off by doomsayers.

Best of luck.

[LouisW]

I'd love to do the car up and if worse comes to the worst I could use this as a 'practice' and develop my skills as has been said. I was quite excited to start it but after hearing about the major problem with the rotting sills its put abit of bummer to things.

If I start my work on the bonnet and see how I do and then work myself around the car it'd help motivate me to inquire on welding.jobs

[thebrookster]

Aye, for heavens sake don't just give in on my word!!

The right approach is what is called for, on my first car I went about things the wrong way, mostly from lack of knowledge. My main point was to investigate fully what you have, and make a reasoned plan.

I have just had a quick scan through Rimmers website, as a rough guide, working on the WORST case scenario, you would be looking at approx £1000.

However, there are a few caveats to this:

1. This assumes all panels have to be replaced. Chances are you'll have a few that are in fact re-usable or repairable.
2. I have deliberately chosen "Original" panels, these are more expensive. Repro panels are available much cheaper, although they will require more work to get a decent fit. But still viable!!
3. As I said, this is Rimmer Bros prices!! They are not the cheapest, shall we say TD Fitchetts, for example, will do most panels far cheaper, only problem is they don't have a website.
4. You may also be able to find second hand panels from Triumph breakers. Unlikely to get full panels this way, but if you only need a section then this could be viable.

So in reality, cost of parts will probably be a good bit cheaper than the above price. It might be a bit steep all in one go, but also bear in mind you should only work on one side of the car at a time, and you can work from one end to the other. This would allow you to stagger the purchases somewhat, giving far more realistic sums. Also worth noting is some of the bigger companies periodically offer Sales/Special Prices etc, which could save you money.

These cars are simple to work on, and excellent fun, and definitely worth doing! Also, plenty of advice and good threads showing other peoples restoration work, have a scan through Spitfire/GT6 section, will give you a very good idea of what is involved.

Best of Luck,

Phil

[LouisW]

I always knew it wasn't going to be an easy task and I'm far from giving in! I'm glad you're being honest with me in the first place otherwise id get into the project and have tons of rust and no money to deal with!!

I've looked through lots of restos and nearly all look worse than the spit I have here. 1,000 for panels doesn't really seem bad at all and if they're available elsewhere for cheaper that's a bonus!!

I'll take a better look tomorrow and see how well the sills are actually holding up. I'm guessing if the sills are rotting the floor pan wouldnt be far behind either!!

With it being my first time I just want to get things right without messing.it up further down the line. Thanks very much brookster and everyone else! It's much appreciated

Would it be worth working on the bonnet first and taking things on as I encounter them? No point starting on major areas without any knowledge at all especially in the winter when these parts would be open to the elements.
The car is now under a tarpaulin as I persuade my mum to clear the garage:p

Thanks again for your help! Atleast I know where I truly stand with the project.
I look forward to the project and further replies/tips from you guys!

Cheers,
Louis

[Sheepy]

Get her to clear that garage, tell her you will take her out for a nice summer drive, and meal when it's finished! 🙂
Also, why not say you will do extra work for her, washing ironing etc etc, as a bargaining tool? Worth a shot!

Glad you are still keen, our intention is not to get you down or make you give up, we are just trying to let you know what your getting into.
When I started messing with cars at 15, I had a Saturday job, saved up and bought a cheap mini! Yes there was a reason it was cheap! "but I can fix it" and as said above, I attacked it the wrong way, and soon lost interest, the next few cars I bought were done different, so I got further with them!

We want you to succeed, 1, because it's great to see younger interest in the hobby, 2, great to keep another spit on the road.

Please don't scrap it, if it's do able, or like others have said, re shell it. As they have said, you have time so you can do bit by bit, and save up in between.

Come on guys, who lives near him, go round and take him for a spin in your spit! He will be truly fired up then! 😀

A good idea, is to set yourself a goal, for example, tonight I will remove the headlights and front bumper! Then when you achieve that, you feel good so can do another job! Bonus!
If at times your getting annoyed at what your doing, it's getting to you, just stop, have a minute or two, or do another job and come back to it later, frustration and lack of progress is the death of so many projects! (been there done that)

[LouisW]

Sounds like a good plan!! I'm not going to give up anytime soon unless i run out of money/ welding is needed to be done which would just slow the project down more than stopping it all together  

I've removed the headlight holders/bowls on the front and will remove the rust from them and give them a coat of hammerite at a later date (tomorrow night). I've also removed most of the surface rust on the front lip of the bonnet but there are still some areas where there is pitting.

I'm thinking about ordering this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/pH-D.....;hash=item23204fc97c

for removing the rust but i'm not sure if that would be any good? Opinions would be greatly appreciated if you've had experience with others or this one

I'm also not sure on whether to completely strip the front bonnet down to bare metal and prime it up, or whether to just strip the areas where it is rusting and then prime the bare metal where the rust has been removed. This would be alot easier and cheaper to do but i'm unsure on whether it'd be the best option!  

Hope you're able to help,
Regards,

Louis

[LouisW]

Would this be a better alternative to the above? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1kg-.....;hash=item1e6cad1a49

[LouisW]

Any help would be appreciated

[thebrookster]

Louis, I am not completely clear what you intend this stuff for?

Rust Removers etc are fine for small patches, say where a stone chip has chipped the paint work. Rub back, apply to completely cure the rust, and spray over but for larger areas you'll have a better effect with wirebrush/sandpaper/etc. If you strip a panel back to bare metal, you will always get surface oxidation occurring after a while, so expect to have to rub the entire car down before painting, part of the prep work.

I notice you mention welding above, be warned you are going to have to get handy with a welder!! Like it or lump it, you will have to replace some panels/repair patches etc, and that entails a welder! Originally bits like sills would have been spot-welded, however this is not financially viable for the most restorations, so most of us make do with a MIG welder, using a technique called plug welding. You will also want to be able to lay good welds as well, say if you need a new floor pan or a patch.
Nothing to worry about though, you can pick up a basic welder easily enough, Aldi sell them periodically IIRC, which will do fine for a single resto. Either that or possibly Machine Mart, the Clarke MIG 90EN 'No-Gas' MIG Welder will do the job. Unless of course you can borrow a welder from somebody, which would be even better. You want as low a minimum setting as possible, much better for thin steel like bodywork! If you have to work outside, then the gasless wire is better, though not as nice/neat a weld, if inside go for a gas bottle set-up, much nicer to work with IMO. http://www.mig-welding.co.uk is a very good site for info!!

Cheers,

Phil

[Twincarb]

I would have thought that the first option would be to mechanically remove all the rust.... and reserve a chemical to any area you can't reach easily. An angle grinder with a flapper disk would be ideal, as it's an angle grinder you will also be using it to cut out metal as required prior to any welding.

It's great to see your enthusiasm for your project having some basic tools will assist you greatly. You will probably find that as the years pass you will still be using them as well!

[LouisW]

Thanks for the help phil! I know I will have to bite the bullet some time and enquire about getting a welder but if i'm able to do lots of things before one is needed that's abit of a bonus 😀

@twincarb, That would indeed probably be the best way to do it especially after buying an angle grinder i may aswell put it to good use!

I was wanting to use the rust remover to convert the areas which have small amounts of pitting which i'm unable to sand off. Would rust remover be suitable for that job? I would be using the flap disc for the majority of the rust removal however, as its fast and simple.

The question I was asking was whether to completely strip the bonnet down to bare metal and prime/ repaint it or to just remove the rust, prime the areas which are bare metal, and then to use a spray paint over the bonnet.


I'm not sure which way to sway, as the second option would be alot easier and quicker to do whilst also being cheaper although i'm unsure on how well new paint would adhere to the old paint that was on it?

Would completely stripping the paint away with some paint strippers and then removing the further rust and priming the whole thing be a better solution?

--

Another question i have is that the front wheel arches are completely rusted and bent coming away from the welds on the bottom of the bonnet. I have found some front wheel arches at £25 each, however they're fiberglass and i dont know how i would join this strongly to the metal?

Would it be more cost effective to just patch the rust up with metal sheet and then plug weld it into place? I know this would probably be the stronger better route and would also increase my welding skills i'm just thinking it may be alot more expensive as the wheelarches are nearly gone :

Thanks again for all your help! I'm sorry for all the questions, i just need to put them out there so i dont make mistakes 😎

[Bradley1500]

Before stripping the bonnet of paint it sounds like you need to address the wheel arches.

I wouldn't bother with fibreglass items as they're usually a pig to fit from what I've heard.

You can buy proper replacement panels,  TD Fitchetts springs to mind, give them a call.

Alternatively if your bonnet is that bad, buy a new bonnet? There's a few on eBay at the moment:

Sorry , link no longer available

Are you going to be painting the car yourself? If not then I would, for the time being at least, simple attack the rusty areas; stripping them of paint, taking out rusty metal and letting new in and a few coats of primer will keep the worst at bay.

I agree with the above comments, clear the garage and get it inside! Otherwise all your hard work repairing the rusty bits won't stay good for long with our winters!

Good luck!

[LouisW]

I just had the bonnet off and the rust underneath is worse than i thought. I have taken a picture but now i'm swaying more towards a brand new bonnet as it wouldn't be cost effective to repair this one. The top of the bonnet is in perfect condition apart from the odd area of surface rust which is why im confused as to why underneath it'd be so bad?

The front offside wheelarch has also completely fallen off the bonnet due to it rotting away 🤔

Here are some pictures of the bonnet -




I also took some pictures of under the hood (sorry about it's condition!! haha) -

[LouisW]

I'm wondering how in order the engine is looking as i'm unsure on whether everything is there/ where it's meant to be.

What do you guys also think about the rust in the bonnet? Would it be worth getting a welder and plug welding new sheets onto it, and fixing up the wheelarches or to just buy a brand new bonnet?

[RedRooster]

Well the bits under the headlights are available, i put new ones on mine.
RR

[LouisW]

Where did you get them from if you dont mind me asking? 😉

[LouisW]

Right, a couple of updates....

I have lifted the carpets as best as i could to inspect the floor panel and sills from the inside and they all suprisingly seem sound. I havn't been able to have a proper look due to the seats still being in and it limiting me, first impressions are good though!

The only hole i can see is towards the back which i knew would be there that has come through from under the rear wheelarch.

I have also painted the headlight holders and will store them for future use.

I just dont really know where to go from here. I think i'm going to need to buy a bonnet but i'm not sure whether to work on the rusted areas first e.g bottom of doors etc, or to work on getting the engine to fire up?

With the cold weather setting in i know i'll be limited on the amount of things i'm able to do, and dont really want to start on something which i cannot finish which will leave me more problems in the future.

Would it be worth getting the seats out (the interior is in fantastic condition) and taking alot at the floor and just cleaning it up inside?

Expert advice is always appreciated for a young restorer like me!  

[LouisW]

Anyone able to help? I'm going to remove the master brake etc from the bulkhead and get that all cleaned up but i'm unsure on where to go from there 🤔

I'm sorry for all the questions, most which probably seem stupid but I need to ask them otherwise i'd make more mistakes further on!!

[rotoflex]

Quoted from LouisW

Would it be worth getting the seats out (the interior is in fantastic condition) and taking alot at the floor and just cleaning it up inside?

I generally avoid commenting on Spitfire topics because of finding things can be unexpectedly different, but I think if you've got the time now, it would be a good idea to remove the seats & carpet to inspect the floor.  If for no other reason than to get the seats out, clean up the mounting holes, & put antisieze on the seat bolts so that if you must you can easily get them out in the future for working under the dash or transmission repair.

The questions about doing welding vs. engine work at this time I defer to those with more experience!