Cyril The Herald (1968 13/60 Restoration)

[Cyril_The_Herald]

Cyril The Herald

450 wrote:

...Are you running neg or pos earth from the battery? this will determine which way round the leads go to the coil.

Just dashed outside in the rain to check the battery wiring and this is the outcome...

• The battery has the earth from the negative point to the bodywork (then a whole load of wires leading from this point).
• The battery has the positive point leading to 'a gadget' shown below (no idea what this is).
• The coil has the negative point leading to the low tension lead on the distributor.

[Stu 1986]

The reason you disconnect the battery is because once the 12V has passed through the coil to the solenoid, the shock it'll give you is enough to vulcanise a gold ring to a man's finger. I watched this happen to my Dad's friend when he was fiddling with my car. I did ask shall I drop the battery.... :-/

[SRF]

You really need to know if there is a spark at the plugs,  either take a spark plug out, reconnect the cap and lodge it against a metal part of the engine.  If you have a spare spark plug use that and just attach a plug lead.  Get someone to spin the engine with the ignition key whilst you look a the contacts on the plug.  You should see a big juicy spark.  Be careful of touching anything to do with the ignition whilst the engine is turned over.  You can get a nasty jolt from the high tension electric.  If you have a spark, there are only a couple of other reasons the car won't start.  The first is lack of fuel or as has been suggested the fuel is old and has lost its potency.  The next is compression, from your You tube film the engine is rocking as though it has good compression. Another check is to put your finger over the plug hole whilst the spark plug is out you should feel air rushing out as the engine is turned over ( remember to keep the plug lead away from your hand or you will get a shock from the ignition system).  The last thing is ignition timing.  This is the least likely cause and means that the spark at the plug is happening at the wrong time as the engine is turned over

If there is no spark at the plug, take off the distributor cap, make sure the points are closed, remove the lead from the centre of the distributor  cap.  Rest this lead close to a metal part of the engine and with the ignition turned on take an electrical screwdriver and flick the points open.  You should see and hear a spark between the centre lead and engine part.  If you have a spark then there is a fault with the rotor arm, distributor cap, or HT leads.   If no spark then there is a fault in the low tension side of the ignition system.  First make sure there is a 12 volt feed to the coil with the ignition switched on.  If there is then replace the points condensor and the coil.

I you haven't a spark I would seriously consider changing all the ignition parts ie coil, condensor, points, distributor cap, rotor arm Ht leads, plug caps and plugs.  A couple of notorious items in the system are the condensor and rotor arm.  Even new ones are sometimes faulty.    I hope this isn't too technical and helps you find the cause of your non starter.  After 45 years of messing with engines I haven't met one that could not be started eventually.

[Stu 1986]

Another thing to do is make sure the HT leads are plugged in, in the correct plugs. I know someone who spent months trying to start an engine, buying new carbs, ignition parts, fuel pump and even began looking at a new distributor before I checked the diagram and pointed out the error of his ways. :)  

[firebobby]

It has been mentioned here before...Petrol, if the petrol is old, you will not start the engine on it.
I would buy a gallon of fresh fuel and run it straight into the fuel pump (bypassing the tank), at least you will be certain that the fuel is fresh and clean.
If you look at your last photo, you will see a round metal object with 2 pipes going into it, this is the fuel pump.
You will need to check the pipes as one goes to the carburettor and the other is the supply from the fuel tank, it's the tank supply pipe that you need to remove and then use a suitable  rubber/plastic pipe to go from the fuel can to the fuel pump (make sure the can is sited on a level safe area) and give it a try, but as stated, you must get the ignition working correctly as well.

[Elma fud]

Try some easy start spray if you've got a spark at the plugs spraying that into the carb while you are cranking it over that will get it running all the time you are spraying the stuff in ;)

[mazfg]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251091340914&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:1123

Complete bulkhead with floor panels, here!

[Cyril_The_Herald]

Cyril The Herald

Today we checked whether there is a spark at the plugs, and there isn't.  So took on board the advice from SRF below but still no spark.

4874 wrote:

If there is no spark at the plug, take off the distributor cap, make sure the points are closed, remove the lead from the centre of the distributor  cap.  Rest this lead close to a metal part of the engine and with the ignition turned on take an electrical screwdriver and flick the points open.  You should see and hear a spark between the centre lead and engine part.  If you have a spark then there is a fault with the rotor arm, distributor cap, or HT leads.   If no spark then there is a fault in the low tension side of the ignition system.  First make sure there is a 12 volt feed to the coil with the ignition switched on.  If there is then replace the points condensor and the coil.

So, question is, how do we check that there is a 12 volt feed to the coil?  Is there a 'gadget' we should have to do this?

So far we've replaced loads of ignition parts including the coil, dizzy cap, plugs, rotor arm, points and high tension lead.

As always, all advice very gratefully received.

www.ourtriumphherald.wordpress.com

[Pom Down Under]

There is a wire running to the coil from the ignition switch. This will be connected to a terminal marked SW or + assuming your car is a negative earth. (- in a positive earthed vehicle)

One way to confirm whether this connection is "live" is to use a test light to check it when the ignition switch is turned on (this is the "gadget" you were asking about - cheap to buy, or easy enough to make using a surplus light with two wires attached). However, a foolproof method is to disconnect the ignition wire at the coil and then run a wire direct from the + battery post (or whichever battery post you may have not connected to earth). This wire has now effectively replaced the ignition switch.

All the tests indicated before to check for spark can now be repeated - remembering that if the engine does start (hopefully) you will then need to remove the wire from the battery to shut the engine down (so better to have the wire connected in such a way that you can pull it off easily if needed.)

Of course if this does allow a spark at plugs/points you will need to check the loom connections between ignition switch and coil for any breaks.

Good luck.            ;)

[Cyril_The_Herald]

Cyril The Herald

And Cyril still won't start :-(

Tried the advice below from Pom Down Under by bypassing the ignition with a wire direct from the +ve terminal on the battery to the +ve terminal to the coil - Turned the ignition and the engine still turned over but still won't fire up.  Checked for a spark at the plugs and nothing :(

What next?

Interestingly, at first, when I made the connection from the +ve coil terminal to the +ve battery terminal, there were small sparks to be seen on the battery terminal.  After trying to start the car, I disconnected my make-shift ignition, removed a plug (to check for a spark) then re-installed my make-shift ignition - BUT NO SPARKING.  What might this be?

1379 wrote:

...However, a foolproof method is to disconnect the ignition wire at the coil and then run a wire direct from the + battery post (or whichever battery post you may have not connected to earth). This wire has now effectively replaced the ignition switch.

All the tests indicated before to check for spark can now be repeated - remembering that if the engine does start (hopefully) you will then need to remove the wire from the battery to shut the engine down (so better to have the wire connected in such a way that you can pull it off easily if needed.)

www.ourtriumphherald.wordpress.com

[SRF]

The reason you are not getting a spark at the battery terminal may well be that the points are open.  You will only be getting a spark if the points are closed.  A word of warning when the battery is working hard or being charged it gives off hydrogen gas a careless spark near the battery could cause the battery to explode.

To go any further your need a tester.  Halfords amongst many do one<a href=""></a>  http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_211131_langId_-1_categoryId_25521.

Just to explain.  The ignition system has 2 voltages  low tension 12 volts  and high tension 1000s of volts.  When you feed 12 volts to the coil (low tension)  it passes through it and then to the points.  The action of the points opening and closing causes the coil to discharge  a High tension voltage through the thick centre cable.  If the cable is held close to earth, (the metal parts of the engine) a big spark occurrs.   The condensor is connected to the points this basically stops the points producing a big spark and damaging them.  This is a very simple description of the low tension side of things and I would concentrate on checking this out first.  You can move onto the HT distribution side of things later.

So with your newly acquired tester,  Make sure that you have 12 volts coming from the ignition switch to the coil, with the key turned on.  If you have,  then  test that you have 12 volts coming from the coil to the distributor points.  As I said in my previous reply.  With the points closed and with the ignition turned on. Check you have a spark coming from the centre cable that comes from the coil by holding it near a bare metal part of the engine and flicking the points open with an electrical screwdriver.  There should be a small spark from the points. A big spark indicates a faulty condensor.

Until you get a big spark from the centre cable coming from the coil when flicking the points open there is no point in going further.   Condensors are my pet hate.  They can't be easily tested in a home situation and even new ones can be faulty.
Another check worth doing is to make sure the points are fitted properly.  

I am confident you will get to the bottom of the problem.          

[Cyril_The_Herald]

Cyril The Herald

Thanks SRF.  I can't believe how helpful people are on here!

My friend at work is lending me his volt meter so I'm looking forward to doing the test.  I'm a little nervous of doing it wrong though >: ??) so hopefully you'll help me out some more?

Test#1 - Check there is 12v coming from Ignition to Coil

So to do this, I assume I put one end of the tester on the +ve terminal on the coil (which comes directly from the ignition switch) but where do I put the other end of the tester?

Test#2 - Check there is 12v coming from the Coil to the Points

So to do this, I assume I put one end of the tester on the centre connector of the coil, and the other end on the closed points.

These questions may sound dumb, but a few weeks ago I didn't even know what a coil was  ;D

As always, thanks very much for your help.

4874 wrote:

So with your newly acquired tester,  Make sure that you have 12 volts coming from the ignition switch to the coil, with the key turned on.  If you have,  then  test that you have 12 volts coming from the coil to the distributor points.  As I said in my previous reply.  With the points closed and with the ignition turned on. Check you have a spark coming from the centre cable that comes from the coil by holding it near a bare metal part of the engine and flicking the points open with an electrical screwdriver.  There should be a small spark from the points. A big spark indicates a faulty condensor.

Until you get a big spark from the centre cable coming from the coil when flicking the points open there is no point in going further.   Condensors are my pet hate.  They can't be easily tested in a home situation and even new ones can be faulty.
Another check worth doing is to make sure the points are fitted properly.

[GrayFox]

Hi Guys.  We have just got home from a 3000 mile road trip in our 13/60.  You might be interested to see the story of the restoration - search "Gifted" on this forum and you will find it.  Our car was in an even sorrier state than your Cyril so it can be done.  Wish we lived closer and could offer a bit of practical help but we are way down in Cornwall so can only offer encouragement.  Best of luck. :)

[SRF]

First, check the meter is working properly by connecting it to the battery positive to positive and negative to negative..  Which ever side of the battery is connected to earth ie the car leave the meter connected to that.  With the ignition turned on test the wire to the coil.
With the points open test the voltage to them.

What is happening with the points flick test.  Just to repeat,   take the cable coming from the centre of the coil disconnect it from the distributor cap.  Hold it close to a metal part of the engine. a pair of insulated pliers or a pair of rubber gloves should stop you getting a jolt.  With the points closed, ignition turned on, flick the points open with an electricians screwdriver.   There should be a big fat blue spark coming from the end of the thick cable.  If there is  no spark and as long as you are getting 12 volts to the points there is a fault in the points, coil and or condensor  

Some distributors have a little earth wire connecting the base plate make sure if you have one it is connected ok.  The points you fitted were they a one piece set?  of did you fit the fixed part first.  If they are the second type make sure you fitted the insulating washer before slipping the moving part onto the fixed post.

Another test you can do if your meter has a continuity function is to remove the wire from the points side of the coil, with the ignition off, connect the meter to this wire and with the other end still on the earth side of the battery open and close the points.  You should only get a continuity reading or bleep with the points closed.        

[SRF]

I have just seen that you live in North Yorkshire,  We collected a gearbox from Bedale on Saturday, If I had known earlier we could have given you a quick visit.  Unfortunately we are 2 and half hours away.  Is there no one on the forum closer who can give these nice people a guiding hand???

[Pom Down Under]

I wonder whether the points or the connection through to them may actually be earthing out? Anybody you know who has rudimentary knowledge of car electrics would spot this readily - but to a beginner it can be easily missed. I can guarantee I am further away than any of the others! (Adelaide, South Australia.)

Below is one of my wife's Heralds, after it had sat in previous owner's garden for a decade plus - as a playhouse for his kids!! It also did not want to start until I had changed the coil and fiddled inside the distributor. We all suffer the same I guess?   Again, good luck.    8)

[Cyril_The_Herald]

Cyril The Herald

Okay, now I'm starting to feel silly (blush)

Tonight I've done the tests and found the battery is giving out a good 12v ;D but all other tests show zero volts :( this is of course assuming I'm doing it right.  Probably worth stating that the ignition was on during the tests.

Apologies for my silly drawings - Feel like I need to be a bit silly right now because Cyril is testing my patience.

BTW - A MASSIVE thanks to EVERYONE who is helping.  I'm amazed by the support and advice.

[SRF]

Check your fuses, the tests seem to be correct.  A previous suggestion was to connect a wire direct from the battery + positive  to the ignition side of the coil. Years ago this was called hot wiring and was the way many cars were stolen
  Do this and do the flick test.

[Mark Hammond]

13/60s only have one fuse.  That is for the headlamp flasher!

M.

[SRF]

Just had a look at a 13/60 wiring diagram,  Mark and you are absolutely correct.
  So  there must be a break in a wire somewhere.  To be honest if the jump wire from the battery to the coil does  work,  I think it is getting past the ability of a novice to trace this fault,  The wiring system including the ignition switch needs a full test.
With the best will in the world I don't think advice via a forum will suffice, it needs hands on attention by a competent person.  It's a shame I live for far away I am sure this is a simple fault that just needs finding.

[Pom Down Under]

The jump wire is by far the easiest way to confirm things, and if the jump wire becomes too hot to hold you know there is an earth problem in the circuit somewhere (generally in the distributor).

Cyril you will probably understand that if there is no power at the coil wire (as in your second diagram) there is no way possible to achieve power at the distributor (as in your third diagram).

So, with the jump wire in place AND the original ignition wires removed, repeat tests two and three again. Considering you have a new coil on there you will have 12 volts at the coil connection (if not ensure there is an earth connection from the engine to the chassis, or body) but if nothing showing at the distributor connection your problem will be in the distributor.

Anyone disagree???      

[dinger]

And yet another suggestion,,

Leave the earth connection attached .. having cleaned battery contact and made sure that the end of the earth lead  attached to the car is bolted to clean metal and that the end of the lead has been cleaned itself .
Fit new piece of wire from battery positive ( on the expectation that the earth is to negative) while connecting the other end to coil positive .

take one of the HT leads from the distributor cap and fit to the coil output .(large push fit between smaller connections.

fit a new piece of wire to the coil negative connection .

Fit a plug to the ht lead now fitted to the coil and touch to a suitable metal surface . (engine or bulkhead )  . Flash the bared end of the wire from coil negative to a similar metal surface .
You should see sparks at the plug  as you flash the lead .

If so - definitely mis trust the distributor .

There are many more ways ....

[Pom Down Under]

You like getting zapped dinger? He can simply take a reading with his little test jigger thingo that he borrowed. Me, I look for a spark as the points open (distributor cap removed of course). But as you say, there are many more ways.      ;)

[dinger]

Yep - revived many a heap of cr.p .. First principles have born fruit .. old enough to have used these contraptions as day to day transport .. must have been mad ...

[Pom Down Under]

Coming through my apprenticeship, when money was tight, I survived on any cheap car that was available with registration, even buying one with three weeks left on it once!

The result was I became quite good at rectifying basic problems and gradually learnt how to fix bigger problems like broken gearboxes, axles, etc (pull and fit replacement quickly and then use).

I hate to admit it, but many "nice" cars were then sold on or driven to the scrappy! I believe I had used/abused 56 cars when I did a head count at 21 years of age, and of these - one had been stolen and about a dozen or so sold on.  Mind you, I learnt a lot from those cars!    :B

BUT back to the thread, surely someone lives near enough to Cyril and Kelly to lend them a hand. My money is on something earthing out in the distributor.