Roger Keys

On 04/10/2021 at 14:00, DGF said:

I’m after 

boot floor 

rear valance 

sills-and floor pans, both sides

I’m hoping someone has some tucked away surplus to requirements  

Check fitchetts eBay shop. Panels galore in the big clear out. No idea if he has what you need though 

Chris does make some lovely parts.

22 minutes ago, PeteStupps said:

Sorry if i've missed it elsewhere but what is it you're looking into @roger keys? Or is it still too early to share?!

Cant be specific, but we do springs, shocks, discs and pads. Always keeping an eye out for opportunities 🙂

Relatively short run production is something we can do, which the big boys just are not interested in.

Having run the numbers on a couple of triumph related products, i know i cannot compete on price. Yes, if we did it, ours would work correctly, but if no one buys it, its rather pointless. If 9 out of 10 customers still buy the underperfoming cheap one, im going to hemmorage cash. 

1 hour ago, Jason said:

Who's the supplier for heated ones? I do wonder if I could get one for the Vitesse, although there's no heater in it yet, I know it'll be poor when I do put one in!

Pilkington classic will do you one to order i believe. https://www.pilkington.com/en-gb/uk/automotive/classic-cars-home/makes-and-models/all-makes-and-models?make=triumph

Let us know how you go. I want to do one for the stag. Thats still running its original toughened one and i REALLY need to remove it.

1 hour ago, Topic63 said:

Not arguing with your comments and I will undoubtedly have to invest in the upgraded versions at a later date, what we shouldn’t accept is a product that is of a questionable quality.

’Some’ do take advantage of the classic car market and do charge what I would call silly money, you can easily see this when you compare similar parts that are readily available for other marquees at a reasonable cost and question why they then attract a premium for classics?

I’ve come across this a few times (drop links being one such item) for example, a very similar if not virtually identical link for a BMW was retailing at £12 so you have to question why £52 for a Triumph - It’s not as if someone has had to reinvent the wheel, a difference in length and possibly imperial threads rather than metric, the machinery and initial investment has already been covered.

All of these parts have been around for many, many years and I accept that as cars get older and rarer the demand drops off, cost do increase for smaller production runs however, in the case of Powertune, they seem to be the only manufacturer of this certain item and sell it on to ALL the distributors we tend to now use, so their client base is huge.

Another pointer is the likes of Rimmers, they have bought out other smaller retailers so they can monopolies the market and do charge over the odds for spares that are (in some cases) sub-standard, this is a case of profiteering rather than looking after the marquee or it’s customers.

Dont accept it then! Send it back. Nothing will change as long as customers keep buying poor quality parts. The market wants cheap, so thats what it gets.

Your BMW example is flawed. The volumes, by comparision will be huge. And at £12, could be just as poor as the parts you are complaining about. Poor quality parts isnt just a problem in classics. It is rife on newer car stuff too.

Your argument that it is only slightly different doesnt fly. It different. So thats a seperate production run with all that entails, for, say, 100 V 10,000 BMW ones. One presumes you dont run a production line? Making 10,000 is a rather more cost effective process than 100.

As i have found out, yes, there is often only one supplier for a given part. Thats because volumes are low. Ive been looking at a couple of parts. If i end up competeing with an existing supplier, that divides up the share of a limited market. I may never recover the investment, never mind make any money unless i win most of the sales. Sure, thats my problem/risk to decide, but where an existing supplier is making something, that rather dis-incentives one to take a risk. The market size is what it is. Adding an extra supplier doesnt change that.

Which brings me to the "huge" client base. Its actually irrelevant. The market size, as i just said, is what it is. Having an extra 10 outlets doesnt bring more sales. Just 10 different routes to market.

The lincolnshire company you mention, yes, they often are more expensive. Almost everything they sell is available for less elsewhere, should you choose to do so. Im not sure why they should look after the marque? Their purpose in life is to make money. And its your choice to use them.

As i said in my first post, your expectation is unrealistic. You want high quality and low cost, on a niche product. Choose 2, but you cant have all 3.

18 hours ago, Topic63 said:

Regarding a recent issue with the quality of Drop links, I’ve had replies from most of the suppliers and sadly all so far have said their parts come from Powertune in Turkey.

I discussed the issue with TD Fitchetts who are also supplied by the same company, sadly there appears to be no alternatives these days, it seems we are stuck with these sub-standard parts!?

Does anyone know of a different supplier that can offer a quality part?

In future I may consider the upgraded double ball joint version but at £52 a pair, it’s a little steep 🤷‍♂️

Sadly, you have answered your own question. Cheap, sub standard parts get made because few people want to pay for decent quality parts.

And that appears to include you, as you then go on to say £52 is too much to pay for a pair of good ones.

Ask yourself if your expectation is resonable?

Out of that £52 is 20% tax. So that leaves £43.

From that, it needs to be produced, by someone, packaged, shipped to a distributor. Plus duty paid at import, likely to be 3-4%.  Then stored, and sold on, for a profit. Assuming there isnt an extra company in the chain (likely).

And there will be a minimum production of these, so someone needs to invest in what is a part for a niche car, which may take months or years to sell all of them. If indeed they ever all sell.

Rant over!

This is from someone who is currently pondering producing some classic car parts, in the full knowledge, that whilst i know they will be good, will not be the cheapest, and wondering how long it will take, if ever, to recoup my investment..............................................

5 hours ago, Steve P said:

My Vitesse failed in 2012 when the shaft snapped at the woodruff key in the hub and the wheel departed with the brake drum still attached,was that avoidable?.

S

Ok, all was probably the wrong word. The vast majority is probably more accurate.

4 hours ago, thescrapman said:

It would be interesting to know how many of the causes of retirement could have been fixed at the roadside.

I know at least 2 retirements were for rear driveshaft failure on an IRS car. 

30 minute fix if you have a spare with you.

Even better to sort out the underlying issues beforehand so it doesnt fail.

I reckon driveshaft/UJ failures have got to be near the top of the list of failures over the years. And all completely avoidable.

1 hour ago, RobPearce said:

I can't rule it out but, despite it being the go-to scapegoat for all problems these days, I've run with both and I can't tell any difference in how the car behaves. I certainly don't get the big drop in economy that you have and, to be honest, the science doesn't add up for your results. E10 should be no more than a couple of percent worse for economy.

Interesting that the stag seems to have picked up what appears to be subtle random misfire at tickover. Fine under all other conditions. Need to use all the E10 and then put e5 back in and see if it goes away 

12 hours ago, Ben Hutchings said:

A few years ago I started to put my collection on Discogs, and once you do that you’ve always got some idea of worth. Sure it takes time and grading is fairly subjective but if your stuff hasn’t been heavily rotated or DJ’d you’re in a good starting place.

Initially I didn’t want to sell any, but last week I reached a “do I want to be able to drive my GT6, or do I want to have these 5 pieces of vinyl on my shelf that I listen to once a decade”. So I picked some things that had £20-50 type worth and tentatively listed some for sale. They were snapped up within 2 days. I tended to under-grade slightly because I didn’t want any buyer grief and also enabled ‘accept offers’. Pretty sure my buyers got Nearly Mint stuff for Very Good+ prices! 

But that’s enough for now… I don’t want to part with anything else for a while 😅 especially seeing that while cleaning the ones I sold I listened to them and others and fell in love again 🕴🏼

But record them all first before you sell. I invested in a decent needle specifically for this to get as good a quality as possible.

Not that im selling mine.

10 minutes ago, thescrapman said:

Just thinking, could we just cut some lengths of hose from a scrap modern car?

You can. Except its all metric.

2 hours ago, mole42 said:

Love it! My experience exactly as a member of a single-model Triumph club (no names, but it's a V8 engine).

That makes 2 of us. Same club, no doubt.

1 hour ago, ferny said:

I've tried loads over the years and anything near the engine cracks on the outside for me. Eventually it starts to smell...  I had to change some at the start of the 2018 RBRR when I noticed some was cracking. It was fine days before.

 

I'm going hard nylon now. 

If it smells, but no leak, its not R9/14.

That is a characteristic of R6, which was the standard fuel hose for years, decades even. Which is what i suspect the fake stuff actually is. With more modern fuels, the vapours can permeate the rubber. Thats why so many old cars smell of petrol. It comes through the hose.

I found an air con sniffer to be the perfect device for finding said vapour leaks. 

26 minutes ago, Slimboyfat said:

Pity as they did a cracking job. 

Hopefully it hasnt 🙂

9 minutes ago, Rosbif said:

Easy solution : get a building that is 4000sq ft and you'll only 1/2 fill it 🙄 and you'll have lots of room for more.

Funny you should say that. Im working on a plan not that dissimilar to that................................

Never sell anything if i can avoid it. Just have to try harder to earn more money.

My wife says i have way to much stuff. Given it nearly fills a 2000sq/ft building, she may have a point.

1 hour ago, shedmonkey said:

Thought I would throw in my thoughts as an entrant rather than one of the organising team-so these are just my personal ramblings 

I felt this was one of the best routes/timings out of the 13 runs I've done-Loved falls of shin, great toilets! good snacks plenty of time for a stationary catch up kip, enjoyed "Glasgow" stop -better crack than an Esso forecourt, Oakhampton-again good excuse for a kip- seem to remember having a kip at Gordarno on previous runs

Stress free run back to Knebworth 

My Whiney bits- (non mechanical) Sort your bloody headlight's out before the event! -followed a crew up the A9 every approaching truck flashed it ,god knows what it was like for the Triumph in front of him -when asked he didn't realise his lights were on main beam?!! WTF - had several other badly set up lights follow me ,no need for it set them up prior to the run and road test at night

Driving standards- I am more than happy to pull over and do, on doing so for one crew who constantly caught up and tailgated me  in 30 mph zones - I let them past coming out of a 30 zone- indicator on slowed right down and pulled over -  ...they then held me up on the quicker flowing national speed limit sections for the next 30 miles .. - they also had dodgy headlights!- leave your "nothing will over take me ego at home " 

Fixing stuff - you need common sense to fix stuff .don't come on the event if you don't have common sense...

Agreed with all that. Especially the headlight issue.

Im minded to bring a beam tester to the start next time and make everyone set the headlights before they can leave...............................

The loaded rear ends are also id suggest partly responsible for the many U/J failures over the years.

I feel an supplementary air bag kit for saloons and stags coming on........................ Whilst i dont have U/J's any more, the handling is still affected by the car being "tail down".

Meanwhile, back to work..

All refurbished original parts. In the right finishes . I think/hope?

For a light restration, i may be getting carried away?

Whilst we are on a RBRR theme, here is the dash from the sprint

I’ve done a fair few of these, and, as a result have a few opinions I guess!

Some random thoughts follow, if a bit long winded. Apologies in advance.

As always, a big thanks to Tim, Jason and the rest of the team for organising the event. I don’t think one can underestimate the effort involved to pull all this together.

One welcome change, is that the pace of the event seems to have dropped off a touch, I assume as a result of a bit less mileage. I definitely prefer it that way. A bit more like some rbrr in the dim and distant past. So more time for a chin wag, or if you need to, fix cars, whilst not then dropping so far behind that you are hardly in the event any more. Had I realised this I would have talked (even) more! I really hope we stick with this format.

Jason mentions in his point 5, about the “well meaning” chap trying to create an extra stop. Id say he is not well meaning at all. Indeed he is a menace! I for one will be extremely unhappy if his actions jeopardise the event, and as Jason hints, may be ban anyone that goes there. Id suggest, just do that, ban them. Call it out for what it is. Be blunt.

I see that the returning of road books has cropped a few times already. I suspect this has been made worse by the more relaxed timings, leading to bigger gatherings at stops. Its not a race, so shouldn’t really matter if it takes 5 minutes longer to get your book back. But………..

At Skiach, there was a veritable scrum collecting books, followed by people running back to cars and shooting off. Except that, being one of the later books, almost immediately, I found myself stuck in a convoy of those cars all toodling along at 45- 50mph. I don’t speak for everyone, but I’ve come all this way to drive some great roads with minimal traffic, ambling isn’t what I’m here for. But if you are ambling, what was the mad rush for books all about?

Which, sadly, brings us to driving standards. It was brought up ( by Dale?) at the drivers meeting. If you want to amble, much as I don’t understand, that’s fine, but please, please, show some courtesy to other road users. If the road is empty ahead and there are 15 cars behind you, guess what? You are holding them up. Triumphs or otherwise. Pull over, or at least indicate left and slow down and make it easy to pass. If you are in the convoy, leave space for someone to overtake you and drop back in, in front of you.

Sadly, I had many unnecessarily hold me up, but only one actually make an effort to let me past. Blue saloon, MK2, h reg, in Wales. 3 times! Thank you.

My initial thoughts are, again emphasise this in the literature, drivers meeting etc. But then, the kind of mindset that knowingly holds up a queue of cars for mile after mile, isn’t likely to take much notice of any suggestions to contrary. I don’t know what the answer is to this. How do you fix ignorance?

Back to road books and stops, id echo RobPearce about Okehampton. I’m not really sure what the point of it actually is? Does the TAP make this necessary? I don’t know. Back in the 90’s I recall, we did Gordano then lands end. Nothing in between. Upside was, if you cracked on, you could get to lands end nice and early and get your head down for some stationary sleep.

So on to mechanical snowflakery.

There was a post on the RBRR Banter facebook page from someone who had no mechanical knowledge who though they would like to take part in the future. The replies were mostly, don’t worry, plenty of people can help you. I actually think this was poor advice.

The event is tough on both the drivers and the car. The car needs to be prepped properly, and I’m firmly of the view, that at least one person needs to have a degree of mechanical competence. The message should be, you are responsible for you and your car. Its your responsibility to get round.

The club/organising team are enablers to allow it happen. Its NOT their responsibility to get you round.

Relying on others to cover for your lack of prep or competence really isn’t on, nor fair on those who are.

I’m reminded of a car on a border raiders run. Ok, not as intense as rbrr, but still 2 days driving in some remote locations. Come across a spitfire with bonnet up with fuel issues. The first and obvious problem was the fuel hoses. Cracked, split and barely held on with the wrong, oversize clips. I mean, really??? This is basic stuff. Even the most cursory examination would have raised this. You cant help people that wont help themselves.

My view, though possibly unpopular, is that the organisers shouldn’t be attempting to assist people with ever more "stuff". I think the more that’s done, the more will be expected. Never mind the additional workload on the organisers.

Instead, I think publishing as much data on failures on this run, and previous where it exists, and circulating it to entrants would yield a better result.

There is no doubt that poor quality new parts will figure in the list. (stop buying cheap U/J's people!) The counter to that is to be using the car, regularly, ahead of the event. My stag has done over 5k miles prior to RBRR this year. Apart from greasing the wiper motor, no meddling was done immediately prior to the event.

To summarise, I don’t think anything about the event itself needs changing. It was great as it was.

The only thing I would change is the messaging, i.e., Prep, both car and driver, mechanical competence and driver standards. And repeat that message over and over. And maybe make attendance at drivers meet mandatory?

If it puts a few people off, so be it. Far better id suggest to have 90 cars start and 90 finish than 110 start and 20 fail.

Sign me up for the next one 😊

5 hours ago, Tim Bancroft said:

HI Marcus,

Thanks for coming over and taking part, we are very pleased that you and Thorsten did this, massive commitment to our event considering the covid situation. We very much missed the other European crews that normally come over.

Stickers: I am surprised that a few had issues with them, I always apply with a small amount of hot water with a dash of detergent in the water, not too much water though. Once on, I leave the car for a day, don't drive the car and find them very well adhered. I am sorry, but I don't think we can afford to go the magnetic route as quite expensive and also they don't seem to work well on cars that have curved panels. However, magnetic sheets are available, so why not buy some and then put the stickers onto the sheet and then onto the car. Otherwise, use tape around the edges. We would be very happy to send the pdf for the stickers to you in advance of the event and you could then get some magnetic stickers made up at home? Seems a good compromise.

Thanks for the compliments, very much appreciated. We look forward to seeing you again in 2023.

Tim

My take on the stickers is that they are fine, its just the cleaning /polish available now is so good, they cant stick to it.

I cleaned the first door with Meguirs Ultimate quick detailer spray. Sticker virtually fell of.

Recleaned with brake cleaner and reapplied and it stuck fine.

1 minute ago, Nick Jones said:

Well the stuff I got from Merlin (on Vitesse) is 4 years old now and still good.  The Glencoe stuff (GT6) is maybe 2.5 years old and still good. So I'm content that it's either genuine or at least fit for purpose.

By comparison various lots of "R9" purchased either from AFS direct on via ebay has all fallen apart externally within 9 months.  Actually old and well used R6 salvaged with used FI components did better.

Nick

There is no doubt the AFS stuff is fake, but having bought cohline elsewhere, it suffered the same fate. When i was running the workshop i resorted to importing it (gates) myself from the USA

I think the fake stuff is so embedded in the supply chain no one knows what real or fake.

Lets hope fakesters dont decide to print "gates" on it instead!

49 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

Not a runner since 2008, but re the "mechanical snowflake" thing, or as I prefer, the common cause of getting all the cars round the route, I have a couple of thoughts.

One is to have a sweeper crew in a van or even an estate carrying a selection of basic tools and spares and a couple of mechanically competent persons to apply them.  I suspect volunteers wouldn't be a problem (doing the whole run might be to big an ask - shifts could be arranged!) but actual expenses payable from entries.

Alternatively or as well, have a network of local contacts.  There are quite a few of us dotted around the country with tools, expertise and assorted spares (and who also know others locally with more spares), who would likely to be happy to be "on call" for a few hours as the run passes by.  For example, a TR4 succumbed to alternator failure at Haynes on Sunday. Haynes is 15 minutes from me and I have various alternators..... but I knew nothing of it until too late.

Nick

Edit: Re organisation at controls, it is my ambition to be a bit more organised next time.  And maybe have a gazebo or at least a big brolly.  In my defence, I don't recall having so many arrive in such a short time before.........

What you suggest has merit, but my concern would be that people would then think that the sweeper is there to sort stuff out for people and so they would be less prepared and less able to try and fix any issues thus exacerbating the issue Jason raises in his post.

I think that a more forceful emphasis of "be prepared and have at least one mechanically capable person on the crew" would potentially yeild a better result.

Sadly, if you allow people to believe that someone will bail them out, then they will prepare (or not) accordingly.

As a chap i employ on an occasional basis said, if you motivate people to do the wrong thing, they will. 

2 hours ago, Ben Hutchings said:

I’m looking for a supplier of sensibly priced fuel hose to SAE J30 R9 or R14 spec in 5/16” and 1/4” I.D.

Ideally I’d like Gates Barricade (R14’ish) but annoyingly Moss seem to be the only supplier and they’ve been out of stock of 5/16” for a few weeks now.

I’m pretty sure we don’t need to be paying £20+ a meter for the stuff like some places are trying to charge since the E10 ‘panic’.

What are y’all fitting and from where these days? 

I bought some 5/16 from moss last week to take with me on RBRR.

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

Ben,

Cohline 2240.  Merlin Motorsport or Glencoe Ltd

https://www.glencoeltd.co.uk/cohline-2240-r9-specification-rubber-fuel-injection-hose-8mm-push-on-e85-compatible-2267/

Not especially cheap, but cheaper than burning your car down, or even loosing half a tank of fuel.

Avoid AFS in Kent or ebay.  Just because it says R9 on the hose, doesn't mean it is.  Guess how I know that......

Nick

Not even sure that any of the Cohline stuff is real.

Metric barricade is easy enough to get, but imperial less so.