Triumph 2000/2500 clocks - which is which

[A TR7 16V]

Can anyone help me with which of the Triumph 2000/2500s had which of these or any other Kienzle clocks?

1&2: I know this model was fitted to the Dolomite Sprints of 1973 and for a couple of years after, and I suspect the same clocks were fitted to the 1500s and 1850s too. Note: the boss behind the knob that sets the time has flutes around it.

3&4: I think this model was fitted to the later Dolomites - possibly from about 1975 or 6 to about 1979. Note: the boss behind the time set knob is plain. There may be a later clock still, but they say "QUARTZ" not "KIENZLE" on the face and mount with a U bracket. It seems that these have a slightly paler yellow second hand than the clock in picture 1. The two second hands don't swap - the drive pins are different diameters.

5&6 I know this model was fitted to the S3 E Type and Daimler DS 420.In most cases, they have 8015 inked on the back, and often another 4-digit number as well. I've been told the other is a date code, but if it is, I can't decrypt it. So I don't have any dates, but I think it's more the late 60s than the early 70s. Note: there is no boss, and no second hand and an all black bezel. There is a very similar model 8014 that seems to have been fitted to Mk2 Cortina 1600E and Twin Cams, but that lights up blue, and it's not easy to swap the filters. Neither does it work that well if you put a green LED in one, because the LEDs have some blue in their output, and the blue filter enhances that to give a distinct blue tinge.

Also, I've got into repairing these, so if anyone has any broken ones, I'd be interested.

Graham

[thescrapman]

First 2 seem to be Facelift cars such as 2.5S, with second hands that have faded differently,

third one looks like PFL Mk2 2.5PI

Edited February 8, 2023 by thescrapman

[docwad]

none look like the clock in my early mk2 pi

[A TR7 16V]

Thanks for the idents.

As to the second hand colours, it does look very much like it's consistent that the first, remontoired clockwork ones, have very slightly darker yellow second hands than the electronic, electromagnetic ones, shown in pics 3&4. I've had near a dozen of each of these types so far. From those, I haven't seen any evidence at all that the yellow paint fades, just that the later ones are consistently paler - I'd expect at least some instances of it being the earlier ones being paler if the paint did fade by very much. Like I said, you can tell the two apart from the front by the fluting on the boss behind the front knob. Also, the backlight shrouding is just a little different.

I've been back and looked at the pictures of Mike Barker's well restored 1973 Dolomite Sprint. I had, somewhere, pointed out that has a clock with a pale yellow second hand. However, looking at that again, it is possible to see that it is one of the later electromagnetic clocks, and not one of the clockwork ones - it might be a quartz one, but the face would have to have been swapped, and that's not so easy to do. So it's not as would have been fitted to a 73 car. But the visual differences are really very, very slight. 

The internal differences are huge, and I personally don't like the electromagnetic ones. For a start, they have a combined escape wheel and bevel gear, which goes between the armature that mounts vertically and the drive to the hands. That, being two light bits of amide plastic, seems to wear badly and stop working as an escape wheel, so the clock just stops. They also have a plain bearing top and bottom of the armature that wears, if the escape wheel doesn't. Also, the magnets are stuck to the armature with glue that hasn't lasted very well. So many of them have magnets that are in place only because they are magnetic, and they can move on a big enough bump. That will then change how fast or slow they run, often beyond what the tensioner on the hairspring can compensate for. The clockwork ones are better. The Kienzle 617a remontoire and escapement module inside is also a bit plastic, and isn't as good as the old, mostly metal, two-handed, 607b module - I've seen some 607g modules, but couldn't tell the difference from the b. Even so, that 617a module is nowhere near as cheap and nasty as the internals of the electromagnetic ones.

The quartz ones seem to be the best of all, but the face is wrong. It can be swapped, but like I said, that's not so easy.

Graham

Edited February 8, 2023 by A TR7 16V

[A TR7 16V]

39 minutes ago, docwad said:

none look like the clock in my early mk2 pi

Any chance of pictures?

Graham

[docwad]

mine is a smiths clock

[A TR7 16V]

I've seen that model of Smiths clock before, but don't know where or when it was used. Its face looks surprisingly like the Kienzle model 8013, 8014, and 8015 clocks; the last of which I was told went in the 2500TC. I'm not sure how they could look so much the same, as Smiths and Kienzle were quite separate companies, at least that's what I've read.

I take it that's in a 60mm hole in the dash with a 65mm rebate about 8mm deep. That's what the Kienzle clocks fit into in the Dolomite dash, which is in a similar location, just right of the glovebox. Bit of a bugger to get at though, as there's no access from underneath. I have to take the glovebox door off it's hinges and pull the fibreboard lining out to get at the back of the clock.