Jason C

Hi folks,

Wondering if anyone would be so kind to offer guidance on the correct heater plumbing set-up for a Vitesse, 2 Litre, Mark1, 1968. 

I am in the middle of putting the cylinder head back together after fixing a head gasket. I have pushed hoses into what I think are the correct positions on the three way, manifold adaptor pipe:

1. Top adaptor pipe – to heater valve.
2. Centre adaptor pipe – to heater outlet pipe.
3. Bottom adaptor pipe – to rubber hose, to stainless return pipe, that connects to water pump.

There is a brass hose fitting coming from the bottom side of the cylinder head. I believe this is incorrect? The engine number is: HC10398E – should it have a blanking plug to close this off? Perhaps this is intended for a drain plug, or the cylinder head was used for another engine, and blanked off for the Vitesse.

Are the hoses connected correctly? Are the hoses themselves correct? The rubber hose to the thermostat housing seems too long by my eye for starters.

Please ignore the additional temporary washer in front of the adaptor, the thread in the alloy manifold is past its best. It will not thread any further, has someone had success re-tapping the aluminium thread on the manifold, or safest to use a washer packer, with fibre washers in-between? There seems to be enough thread inside to provide a firm grip. Also, what is an effective thread sealant to apply to the aluminium thread on the manifold, and the water pump fittings? Thread tape, hemp, Loctite thread sealant 567, Hylomar Blue?

Thank you for any help.

Best, Jason

23 hours ago, Slimboyfat said:

Every conversion had a refundable surcharge against return on the none overdrive box. Also we used to get regular visits from all the local scrappers with pickup's full of core. We would pay approximately double what the yards would pay so it kept them coming. We couldn't be choosy though as we didn't want to annoy them, so we ended up with all sorts, including lots of Volvo, Rootes group, MG (wash your mouth out), and even the odd Jag overdrive box.

Nice, good business model! Keeps more cars on the road, rather than good parts heading to the scrap yard. Win, win for everybody. 

2 hours ago, glang said:

This site has the different propshaft lengths  Propshaft Problems : Canley Classics

Thank you @glang, a very handy reference. 
 

3 hours ago, glang said:

I think those covers are all the same and easy to make, even in aluminium?

Aluminium sounds like a good idea, I could potentially mould to shape on the floor, before cutting the steel. 
 

Thank you! 

Spotted this Overdrive floor cover plate, listed for a GT6 Mk2. Is this the same cover plate for the Vitesse, 2 Litre?

Could be fabricated, but this one looks ready to go (if it fits!).

Hi @Guppy916 apologies for my slow reply, thank you kindly for the information.

The photograph with the complete gearbox and overdrive, with wiring is especially useful! Now I can see what the inhibitor switch and its bracket look like. I will need to source one of these. 🙂

I am still collecting parts, but when I get to it, is it easy enough to wire-up yourself? Perhaps someone has a wiring diagram floating round? 

The OD mount bracket plate, does this fit into the same location/bolt holes on the chassis? Also, is there an exact length the propshaft should be for the Overdrive? (this maybe a new thread).

Thank you

1 minute ago, RobPearce said:

Well enough that they can get clogged up!

Ha yes! Very good point, it must have been the thought that counts thinking from Triumph. I’ve found the hanging glass design a little easier to remove without fuel drops.
 

Will add a new transparent filter to the line before the pump. 👍🏻 

5 hours ago, RobPearce said:

(well, except the Spitfire, which has a glass bowl "separator"

Thanks @RobPearce for the tips. Your note about the glass bowl, raised another thought – how well does the brass mesh filter inside the AC mechanical pump work? It doesn’t look incredibly fine, nor would be as good as paper. Guess at the time Triumphs fuel filter in the one unit?  

15 hours ago, Rutty said:

My MK1 Vitesse has had the under body fuel line replaced with 5/16 at sometime in its past so I have 1/4 from tank 5/16 under the body, back to 1/4 into the fuel pump and 1/4 from the pump to the carbs. The previous owner had just used 1/4 fuel hose and forced it onto the 5/16 fuel pipe. When I replaced the fuel hose with ethanol proof hose I used the appropriate size hose for the pipe and brought 1/4 to 5/16 brass adaptors off Ebay to connect the 1/4 to 5/16 hose together. 

Mark

Thanks Mark, sounds like an elegant solution. I‘ve found a few brass inline joiners for fuel hose after looking into your idea. The other idea I had was to use an inline fuel filter as the joiner, one end with 1/4 the other as 5/16. However, having the fuel filter hidden way behind the fuel tank is not the most accessible location – but I assume they are good for a lot of miles.

Speaking of fuel filters, paper filter 10microns the standard? I have seen a fancy sintered bronze element filter that filters down to 40microns. At what level does it start reducing flow I wonder?

On 11/12/2021 at 23:15, Nick Jones said:

All else being equal, I’d suggest 5/16” or 8mm pipe wherever possible on the suction side of the pump (ie. between tank and pump) to minimise suction losses.

Sorry @Nick Jones another question, how does one handle the the 1/4" pick-up tube – to 1/4" fuel hose – transitioning to 5/16" sized line? Is there appropriate fitting? Or did Triumph clamp the 5/16" very tightly to the fuel tank? Although, I’m especially wanting an excellent seal within the boot cavity to prevent any potential odour. 

38 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

Would struggle to buy steel (Bundy) in the UK. 

I use Kunifer for first choice but wouldn’t worry about copper either if properly clipped. Not perhaps an option for you in NZ for legal reasons? Or is that OZ….?

I’m back in NZ, where I think copper isn’t legal from what I understand. Same with Australia. Bundy is easy get a hold of, (had some brake pipe bent by a specialist a few months back) so one assumes it’s legal.  
 

Kunifer looks harder to source, around $100 NZD for 12ft. Pricey but likely easier to bend around tank and engine bay sections. 

44 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

Should be ok so long as it’s big enough.

For filter size, guess it’s not just a matter of finding one with 5/16inch fittings, size based on pressure that’s being pushed through it? 

39 minutes ago, Rosbif said:

I, for one, have a filter just before the pump. No problems, in fact it seems a lot of owners put one there.

Good to hear, thanks @Rosbif. The car currently has one too and seemed fine (when it was running). Seems a good stop gap if anything comes through from the tank. Although the petrol pump has a filter, but not as fine as a fuel filter. 
Mine likely needs replacing, I’ve flushed it out, but it’s old as the hills. 

36 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

Liquid, even thin liquid, travelling through pipes experience friction with the walls of the pipe and internal friction from turbulence within the fluid. This is proportional to the velocity of the fluid travelling through the pipe. This “suction loss” means the pump has to suck harder which lowers the pressure at the pump inlet valve in particular.

Therefore using a larger pipe reduces the losses and means the system can move fuel without lowering the pressure in the suction line so much.

This matters, as one of the factors (along with temperature and turbulence) that causes fuel to boil (vapourise) is low pressure.

Every little helps. And yes, the bigger pipe does fit in the same metal clips.

Nick

Thanks so much for the fantastic explanation @Nick Jones great advise. Will use the larger diameter fuel line.
 

A supplementary question about fluid dynamics, is it a bad idea having a fuel filter just before the fuel pump? Would this reduce pressure? Or beneficial as a safe guard, my filter doesn’t appear to be trapping many particulates visible to the naked eye.  
 

Do you have a preference for steel or Kunifer pipe? Kunifer looks easier to work. We don’t use salt on our roads so rusting not as much an issue. I imagine steel is more rigid across the main length - but it is clipped quite frequently. 

Hi @Nick Jones interesting! OK, while I’m replacing may as well upgrade to 5/16" from the tank, along the main fuel line. Assume the metal spring clips on the chassis are the same and accept the slightly larger diameter pipe? Could you please go into some detail on ‘suction loss’ and ‘vaporisation’? My limited understanding is the larger pipe helps with density of fuel, more capacity in the line with the pressure remaining the same. With suction loss - more fuel readily available in the line, no searching for fuel as such?

31 minutes ago, glang said:

The existing cable would fit but probably wont be long enough as two different sizes were specified for OD and nonOD. Also NOTE the angle drive connection to the gearbox should be installed using a special washer to avoid thrust which could damage its gears.

Perfect, thanks @glang Great tip with the special washer, didn’t realise I needed this. 

34 minutes ago, glang said:

That one looks as if a gorrilla has tightened up the brass coupler but it might still be alright

Ha, yes I noticed that! Maybe I will keep an eye out some more, although after other parts I have purchased, my gut feeling says it still might be better than a reproduction.

Found this Smiths Angle Drive, is this for my intended set-up? 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMITHS-ANGLE-DRIVE-TRIUMPH-2000-2500Pi-TR3-TR4-TR5-TR6-VITESSE-GT6-/144302065378?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

Better buying original, second hand in terms of quality or new? 
 

Lastly, do I buy a new cable to suit?

18 hours ago, tr250 said:

I suppose an automatic delay maybe. It’s just more noticeable than the A-Type. The nice thing about the J-Types, Volvo used the J-Types up until 85. Actually beyond that, but I believe 85 was the last year for the Speedo gear. I guess in 86 they went to some sort of pickup. 

Sounds great @tr250 having not driven either variety I’m looking forward to it. Exactly, the J-Type sounds like a robust piece of engineering. 

20 hours ago, RobPearce said:

It doesn't matter terribly much - whatever fits the pump best.

Thanks Rob, it should be fine. 👍🏻

14 minutes ago, RobPearce said:

The Vitesse 2L (Mk1) was 1/4" all the way. The Mk2 was 5/16" from tank to pump, then 1/4" from pump to carbs. I think the pick-up pipe in the tank was 1/4" on all (even the Dolomite tank had a stub of 1/4" outlet before going 5/16" for the main pipe) but some people say otherwise. I suppose I could check my spare tank.

As to material, I'd go Cunifer or copper. I don't think the work hardening thing is that much of an issue in real life but you may as well avoid it anyway.

Thanks @RobPearce appreciate the concise information, puts my mind at ease! 1/4 inch all the way for my Vitesse 2L.

I will check my measurement of the short line going into the fuel pump, its slightly squashed, I think from the previous owners bend. I take it this should be a 1/4” going into the AC mechanical pipe? 

Hello folks,

Is there a consensus on the diameter of fuel-line hose in the Vitesse, 2 Litre? Is it 1/4 inch or 5/16 inch? 

My current system is:

• 1/4" from the fuel tank itself (pick-up tube)
• 1/4" main steel fuel line
• 5/16" small section feeding into fuel pump (looks like a new addition, has an in-line filter)
• 1/4" from the fuel pump to the carbs.

Judging from my system, I could assume its 1/4 inch. However, I have also seen it noted as 5/16" with the Herald as 1/4". Did the Vitesse have the larger 5/16" fuel line, and does it make a difference?

If a 5/16 inch main fuel-line it seems odd that the line coming from the tank is 1/4 inch. Also brings up the issue of connecting the two different diameter lines. Or perhaps Triumph kept the fuel tank pick-up hose at 1/4 inch from the Herald, and used the larger 5/16 for the rest of the system? But if they increased the fuel tank size for the Vitesse, why not change the pick-up fuel line at the same time, more expensive to manufacture perhaps. I have the original mechanical AC pump, which seems a little odd (to a novice) that 5/16 goes in, with a smaller diameter going out.

Maybe I’m over thinking it, perhaps does not make a big difference at all. Just wanting to buy some more fuel-line and want to do it right once. 

Also, any thoughts on a preferred or recommend material:

• ‘Kunifer Cupro Nickel’ – apparently good combination of properties, easier to bend than steel, long lasting and does not rust.
• Steel - current fuel line looks steel, silver in colour, maybe had a coating of some sort.
• Copper – seen copper around, easy to bend to shape, non rusting. Yet, some say to not use for fuel lines as copper can fatigue over time.

Thanks for any pointers

best,

Jason

Could be dreaming, but did Triumph produce a guide for garages to fit Overdrives? Or were they generally installed at the factory on purchase?

If there are guides, blogs out there on a quality installation, wiring etc that would be very handy!  
 

These days are people fabricating there own gearbox tunnel covers?

Thanks all! 

On 09/12/2021 at 01:03, Slimboyfat said:

At the height of it we were doing anything up to ten conversions a week, and we were doing them for over thirty years

That’s pretty incredible, you guys were like a Triumph production factory in your own right. 🔥

Where did you source that amount of gearbox’s - did owners always swap?

On 09/12/2021 at 01:12, Slimboyfat said:

Every conversion after that got a brand new prop

Great info! Didn’t think of this, my current propshaft has an Isuzu universal joint. Sounds like I may be better to purchase a new one. Are they “easy enough” to source? I’m in NZ so postage from the UK for a heavy weight is a little frightening. Curious, is the steel of the same quality for the new ones?

Is there an official measurement for a propshaft for an Overdrive? Or do you measure once it’s installed in the car…

On 09/12/2021 at 00:54, Slimboyfat said:

J Type 3 rail adapter plates are due in from the machine shop this week. It took a long while to get our casting company interested in doing a run this time (mainly due to relatively small moq) hence the lack of stock for the past year or so. Everything else for the conversions shouldn't be a problem.

It’s fantastic that the adapters are still being manufactured. I was seriously thinking of ordering one earlier in the year, but managed to source a second hand one locally. 

On 08/12/2021 at 05:51, Guppy916 said:

This is on my MK3 GT6 with a 2500 engine fitted, uprated J Type o/d, I used a Sparco Steering wheel with two buttons on, I use one for the horn and the other for o/d, If you fit o/d you should use the over drive inhibitor switches which disengage's o/d the moment you touch the clutch pedal, so you can never leave it on, I also made another brass contact ring to fit in the steering coloum as the photo shows, one contact for the horn the other for o/d, the steering wheel from Demon Tweeks, inhibitor switches from Rimmer's, This all  works great, o/d only on 3rd & 4th

Impressive engine @Guppy916 very nice work! 
 

Wow, this sounds like a fantastic setup. Can you please share more details about your inhibitor switch that disengages with the clutch? Assume you have a switch on the clutch pedal somehow? 

On 07/12/2021 at 10:14, thescrapman said:

Some models were nearly always specified with OD, others rarely. 

Most TR6 seem to be OD. And PI saloons.

not so many Vitesse, hardly any Mk3 Spitfire.

 

Thanks for the insights into the history @thescrapman makes sense as I had seen quite a few PI gearbox overdrives around. 

Stylish looking Vitesse Jason. Its quite incredible how different the car looks with modern mags and being de-chromed. Slimmed down and aggressive. Thats a serious looking engine! 

Do you have any more photographs or a video with the engine fired up? 

Best,

Jason