Herald with no service history

[samwhite95]

Hi All,

I am returning the world of classic cars and looking to buy a herald 1200 of any variety. I viewed one recently that appeared to be in a really good condition at what I think is a reasonable price. The body work was all solid with no apparent holes, the chassis seemed sound and solid and the ride was smooth, not knocky with no rattling that could shake your bones from your skin! The engine ran really well, no oil burning, idled fantastically and started on the button. I even checked the area that it was place it is always parked after it was driven away and signs of leaking.

The car is no history though as it had been separated from the car after owner before the guy who carried out work on it it had passed, and I've looked it up on the MOT checker and no history is present but the registration date matches the plate and V5C details I saw. The vehicle has also had a 1500cc engine of which the type / spec is unknown to the owner (suspected to be a spitfire engine) with twin SUs. Since the work has been done it has changed hand again and some of the details have been lost of exactly what has been done with respect to the engine spec and gearbox used. If the car is solid and at a reasonable price, would no MOT details and an uprated engine spark alarm bells? Or is the assessment with these classics more based on the individual assessment of the vehicle itself and if it is solid and drives well, this should be the focus over the MOT and service history? Is it usual for these cars to have no MOT history present? see photo of engine attached.

Thanks in advance 🙂

[samwhite95]

Further to this question, is the change from a to a 1500cc 4 cylinder engine considered to be a 'significant' change under the DVLA rules? 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/historic-classic-vehicles-mot-exemption-criteria/historic-classic-vehicles-mot-exemption-criteria 

[Clive]

No, as the engine is the same "family" and the conversion is commonplace "back in the day"

 

However, it only matters for mot exemption, and anybody with sense gets their cars mot'd as it is the only practical way of proving the car is roadworthy.

[standardthread]

Don't forget. These Heralds became the Vitesse. Bigger, heavier and more powerful than a 1500 Spit, but with uprated brakes.

All the Heralds I have purchased over the decades never came with a service history, if it's solid go for it.

[samwhite95]

Hi Both, Thanks for the replies. The lack of service history is less of a nerve rattler for me, it is more that when I put the plate into the DVLA checker it returns saying it hasn't had its first MOT yet so there is no MOT history even on the DVLA site. I HPI checked the vehicle and found it's never had the plates switched over and everything else is above board. There seems to be a void in this car's history between the previous 2 owners ago dying and the one in between him and current who apparently did the conversion. The only explanation I can think of is that this herald was dormant from at least 2006 until the MOT exception which would mean the guy's work is effectively untested.

All I can say for it, is that it was a really solid example and ran very well. I'm torn as I've been bitten before by massive GOTCHAs on a car I purchased a few years ago... @Clive are you suggesting the lack the MOT history should be prohibitive to my purchase? Also am I right in saying the above photo is indeed a 1500 spit engine? The owner believes it is the standard herald gearbox, can the 1500 spit engine mate without adaption to the herald box?

Regards,

Sam

[yorkshire_spam]

Hi Sam! (From another Sam) - externally very hard to tell a 1500 from a 1300 engine, really the engine # prefix is the only sign.

If that's a 1500 it's on the "wrong" tiwn carb setup, Spit 1500 have twin hs4s, those are twin hs2 from a Spit 1300 I suspect.

Depending on the practicalities/location etc. why not ask the seller if you can have the car MOT'd at your expense before committing to the purchase. They probably won't want you to as any defects would have to be rectified before it's road legal (you can have NO MOT - that's fine, but a FAILED MOT is not fine!)

1500 Spit engine will mate to a Herald standard box without serious issues from what I understand (aren't they the same as the Spit 'boxes?) 

 

[standardthread]

2 hours ago, yorkshire_spam said:

If that's a 1500 it's on the "wrong" tiwn carb setup, Spit 1500 have twin hs4s, those are twin hs2 from a Spit 1300 I suspect.

1500 Spit engine will mate to a Herald standard box without serious issues from what I understand (aren't they the same as the Spit 'boxes?) 

 

A standard Herald box won't mate with a 1500 box, the later has 20 splines on the input shaft and the clutch plate is bigger, therefore change of flywheel. I fitted one to a previous 1300 Dolomite but with a 1300 clutch plate. As far as I have researched the first Dolomites were fitted with 3 rail boxes before going to single rail, was that the same for the 1500 Spitfires?

In terms of MOT's my Herald Estate was taken off the road in 2010 ish and the DVLA have it as no MOT history even though I MOT'd it just before I layed it up but they still class it as tax exempt etc. I have kept it SORN'd It also has twin 1 1/4" Strombergs which I fitted, so anything goes with carbs.

As is said above, get the present owner to MOT it, if it fails on something major walk away.

[Rutty]

The lack of MOT would be the issue for me. If the seller says its in good order then why would they not spend the relatively small amount of £55 to get proof. I would ask the seller to get an MOT. If they say no either walkway of offer them a price of a none roadworthy car.

[Martins Stag]

I think I would agree that I would expect it to have an MOT as this is a basic safety check. If the vendor doesn't want to do this I would expect he is hiding something? With no Mot I would expect a serious reduction in price as you are taking a risk in my view. I always have my Stag mot and it passed yesterday and I use it mainly as a safety check and yes it did pass.... 

[Clive]

On 27/06/2023 at 12:23, samwhite95 said:

@Clive are you suggesting the lack the MOT history should be prohibitive to my purchase? Also am I right in saying the above photo is indeed a 1500 spit engine? The owner believes it is the standard herald gearbox, can the 1500 spit engine mate without adaption to the herald box?

Regards,

Sam

Sorry, been away thrashing the Spitfire around Europe.

No, Lack of MoT is just something to think about, as it means you have to check the car over yourself. Or better, get it MoT'd prior to purchase.

A std herald box will fit straight onto a 1500 with a change of clutch plate. However, it REALLY needs a diff change to make the car drivable at over 50mph, or ideally overdrive.

I have owned a couple of 1500 heralds, both kept teh original diff but did have overdrive. Great combination.

[standardthread]

That brings in to play the clutch plate, e.g. a 1300 Dolomite, and they are like elephants' eggs to find. Or you risk a dodgy refurbished plate as the owner of a my previous Dolomite did for it to exploded on me, literally damaging the bell housing.

[Clive]

39 minutes ago, standardthread said:

That brings in to play the clutch plate, e.g. a 1300 Dolomite, and they are like elephants' eggs to find. Or you risk a dodgy refurbished plate as the owner of a my previous Dolomite did for it to exploded on me, literally damaging the bell housing.

Dolly 1300 clutch is for single rail box to herald clutch (6 1/2")

The herald box to 1500 engine (or at least flywheel) uses some midget/minor clutch plate from a hazy memory.

Plan B, use a flywheel from a 1300 that has the larger crank holes, or drill a herald one out. Then use a herald clutch. 

[samwhite95]

Thanks all for the advice! very much appreciated. 🙂