Herald Engine inlet manifold suggestion’s please

[Eric JS]

Hi guys I am looking for help.

I am restoring a 1955 Standard 8 saloon - if you are not familiar with this bit of the Standard Triumph history, the Standard 8  is the older sibling of the Triumph Herald and the first car to use the Standard Triumph SC engine.

The car at some time had its old engine removed and replaced with a later rebuilt 1147cc Herald engine, and according to the engine number, I am told it is a High Compression engine fitted with the Spitfire cam shaft.

To complete the engine’s development I want to help it breath better by fitting a sports exhaust and obviously a better carburettor than the current Solex downdraft draft carburettor.

My problem is space, The Standard 8’s engine bay is not wide or long enough to accommodate twin carburettors, as the hydraulic master cylinders are in the way of the rear most carburettor and the drivers side inner wheel arch is just under 350mm away from the side of the block - I am therefor looking for any thoughts and ideas you guys might have in relation to manifolds or adaptors so that I can continue my plans.

I feel I can only go down draft, I don’t really want to cut up the current manifold to remove the exhaust section as I would prefer a dedicated inlet manifold if I can find one.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

E S

[Eric JS]

Hi Guys

With no advice to go on, I have had to come to a simple conclusion to my problem and that is “what you might want or need, you cannot always get”.

Very reluctantly, I have decided to butcher the combined inlet/exhaust manifolds. I will cut off and clean up the inlet manifold section and throw away the the exhaust section.

I can then refit the old inlet manifold and fit the new sports exhaust manifold and down pipes.

With the old Solex carburettor having lots of issues making it more or less useless - I am going to buy a single choke downdraft Webber carburettor and filter and use them to make the car breath in properly. 

Hopefully the conversion will help the little 1147cc Herald engine in my Standard 8 do the business for now, if I feel the need is there are bigger downdraft Webbers available.

Thanks for reading all of this

E S

[Nick Jones]

I have previously cut up the combined 1147 manifold though my goal was the opposite of yours - I was fitting twin carbs and had no alternative exhaust manifold. It was a mission and used a lot of hacksaw blades.

As regards inlet manifold, it would not be very difficult to fabricate a simple U shaped tube linking the two ports in the horizontal plane. You could then either weld a plate on the top for a downdraught carb, on the side for SU or at an angle for an SU in semi-downdraught mode as used on some A-series.

Worth a look at what’s out there for the A-series though cut’n shut would be needed as IIRC the port centres are just different enough to be awkward.

[Eric JS]

On 04/05/2024 at 22:19, Nick Jones said:

I have previously cut up the combined 1147 manifold though my goal was the opposite of yours - I was fitting twin carbs and had no alternative exhaust manifold. It was a mission and used a lot of hacksaw blades.

As regards inlet manifold, it would not be very difficult to fabricate a simple U shaped tube linking the two ports in the horizontal plane. You could then either weld a plate on the top for a downdraught carb, on the side for SU or at an angle for an SU in semi-downdraught mode as used on some A-series.

Worth a look at what’s out there for the A-series though cut’n shut would be needed as IIRC the port centres are just different enough to be awkward.

Hi Nick

Thanks for your thoughts about making my own manifolds etc, sadly I don’t have access to welding equipment anymore and finding the people with the skills to build a bespoke manifold is difficult. 

I don’t know if you watch much YouTube but the American restorers and builders seem to have an endless supply of skill, parts and people who can do stuff, sadly here in the UK finding good mechanics and fabricators can be like pulling teeth.

To be honest I thought one of my local engineering companies would come to my aid but sadly they were not keen on building a new manifold, so I hoped that the bits I needed would be out there ready to buy, but auto jumbles and other suppliers did not come up with the right bits.

The Standard 8 and 10 have good sized engine bays but on the drivers side sit two master cylinders and a high inner wheel arch, so the idea of a Triumph twin carb set up was lost and as I have not been able to find a single carburettor manifold or the carburettor adaptors I would need to adapt the standard manifold - reluctantly I have gone back to down draft because I have lots of room above the engine and there are no problems in the engine bay - not really the win I wanted but I think a good second place.

BMC/Austin/Morris manifolds are as you say are close but not the big cigar or way forward, I looked at them as an option but to my eyes they looked like a whole lot of problems without the help of a milling machine or rotary burrs and grinders. The thing about going back to downdraft is I can keep looking and find the right parts or person then maybe I can do more adaptation.

Thanks again - ES

[standardthread]

Try a Herald 13/60 with single Stromberg.

I've done it on our 10 Gold Star Companion. It just fits.

I used the front downpipe section of the Herald exhaust coupled to the Standard rear section at the silencer.

 

Edited May 7 by standardthread

[Eric JS]

Thanks Standardthread.

Your reply came a little too late for the old manifold, by the time your message arrived, the manifold had gone on the operating table and lost a lot of weight.

The car is still being worked on, no test drive yet but I hope I can give the old girl a run soon, and I will report back to everyone here when I have proper results to share.

Ric

[standardthread]

You could just replace both manifolds for those from a 13/60 Herald, the stud positions etc. are identical.

To get more help with your Standard try this forum;

https://standardclub.proboards.com/

[JohnD]

Eric,

You seem just the guy to go really outfield!     There was an 'official' Lucas Pi kit for the Triumph Spitfire.  I've seen one and nearly bought it, but here's a pic of one that Carl Heinlein adapted from a 6-cylinder set:

 

For Carl's account of Howie Didit, see: 4 Cylinder Triumph Spitfire (lucasinjection.com)

Looks like Tegleriser tried to fit a wholly modern version, but got lost: Fuel Injecting a Spitfire and/or GT6 (teglerizer.com)  and a commercial kit is available:  TriumphFuel Injection Conversion, Triumph Spitfire, Premium Kit (classicfuelinjection.co.uk)

Edited May 13 by JohnD

[Eric JS]

To Standardthread and JohnD

Thanks guys for your replies and the information they contain, both of you have supplied useful information.

The problems I had before butchering the original combined manifold was useless carburettor and being unable to find an appropriate manifold and carburettor adapters.

I tried lots of places looking for a manifold and adaptors but came up with nothing.

The main issue was, I want to get the car back on the road this Spring/early Summer, so I could not hold on to a hope that there was a manifold somewhere - consequently the the carburettor was replaced by a single choke Webber, the manifold was butchered and a spots exhaust manifold was fitted.

The idea of fuel injection is a great idea, I will look at the links supplied and revisit several websites I found this evening after reading JohnD’s post.

Thanks guys

Ric

 

 

[Nick Jones]

On 13/05/2024 at 10:17, standardthread said:

You could just replace both manifolds for those from a 13/60 Herald, the stud positions etc. are identical.

Um….. it’s an 1147 with a 6 port head. Swapping the exhaust manifolds between 6 port and 8 port is by possible in at least one direction with a little thought (ran an 8 port 4-2-1 on my 1147 for a while with twin carbs), but the inlet…. Definitely not.

Same comments re. the injection. It’s possible for sure but some care is needed selecting the system due to the Siamese’d inlet ports and consequent “charge robbing” issues. Same deal as the A-series.

I hear you on the difficulty of finding small jobbing workshops/fabricators.  Mostly retired and/or died! Whereabouts in the country are you?

[Eric JS]

To Nick Jones. 
Thanks for the message.

If you watch some TV and YouTube channels the American guys seem to be able to buy anything for any car any age - here in the UK getting bits for cars which were obscure back when must be more than difficult, British cars should be easier but going on my cars age and it’s maker the spares are getting scarce, you could say getting feathers for a Dodo would be easier!

I think that the people who say “it’s only original once” will be having a lot of wake up call sooner than they think, the guys who talk in part numbers and say “that’s the wrong screw” or “that’s not period correct” are in for some big surprises.

The last thing I wanted to do was butcher a 50 year old combined manifold but cutting off the exhaust part and refitting the inlet part got me out of a number of problems, swopping the Solex Carburettor to a Webber future proofed the fuel supply and fitting a sports exhaust manifold helps the car breath properly.

I actually gave up on finding an inlet manifold and a good many Standard 8 parts. I am sure that going your own way will eventually be the only way to stay in this hobby - fuel injection would be doable if you had the time to research and actually talk to the right people.

Every thing is doable but keeping a precious classic on the road requires lots of new and old companies making new specific spares for us or we all will end up with a Triumph body shell, a Mazda engine and box, Toyota rear axle, Ford wheels, Electric parts off a Fiat and various other parts from every manufacturer and era since WW2. 

The days of the Frankenstein classic car is already here - I have one here in the Cambridgeshire Fens.

Eric

 

[Nick Jones]

On 27/05/2024 at 16:10, Eric JS said:

The days of the Frankenstein classic car is already here

Sure is 🙂

My Vitesse has parts from Toyota Supra (gearbox), Volvo (CV joints), Rover 100 (driveshafts and more CV joints), MGF (seats), BMW K1100 motor bike (throttle bodies), Vauxhall Omega (injectors), Escort mk6 (alternator) and plenty of of other smaller parts besides. The scrapyard is just a great big supermarket of opportunity 😛

[Clive]

On 27/05/2024 at 16:10, Eric JS said:

The days of the Frankenstein classic car is already here 

Ditto 

Spitfire with Ford Focus engine, modified Sierra XR4x4 gearbox, subaru diff, rover driveshafts and hubs but with Rotoflex uprights and std rear spring. Did I mention the injection is aftermarket, and I have Suzuki bike throttle bodies? And an alternator from a Kubota digger?

The thing is, the car is largely unbreakable (I say largely, in the last 9 years it suffered a prop UJ failure, a small loom fire (cause unknown) and very recently lost an alternator pulley) 

The car looks, drives and sounds like a spitfire, but goes rather better. 

The reason for all the changes were to make it tough enough to cope with my knuckle-dragger driving and be able to travel distances reliably. So it ticks all the boxes. 

[Andy Flexney]

Hi Eric,

have you seen this article already?

https://www.pressreader.com/australia/classics-monthly/20210415/281595243285083

Lots of ideas on how to improve the Standard 10 and perhaps you could use some of them on the 10. I have no idea how different they are.

 

Cheers
Andy

[Eric JS]

Hi Andy - thank you so much for the heads up on the article - how did you spot it, you are a gent.

I quickly looked at the article before coming back to the forum, what I could see with a quick skim through looks very useful and I will go back and read it properly and take a few notes.

 Thanks again for your help, 

Eric