Will It Ever Run Again Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Hi all. I'm just getting a Spitfire 1500 going after a long rest and I can't disengage the clutch. It was fine when I drove into the garage (many months ago - with a fuel issue I have now resolved). If I start the car out of gear it will not then go into gear. If I select a gear with the engine off it goes in fine but then of course if I start it with the clutch pedal down, it is in gear. Any ideas about how I can release the clutch without gearbox removal? Thanks Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 First you have to be 100% sure the clutch slave cylinder is working correctly ie. the release bearing is actually being pushed forwards as normal. If this is the case your problem is to break free the stuck friction plate while not damaging either the starter motor/flywheel ring or gearbox internals. The method Ive used is to securely support the rear of the car off the ground with the front wheels chocked and then start it in 1st gear. The back wheels will obviously then be turning so with the tickover set quite high I hold the clutch pedal down while stabbing the brakes. Its worked a couple of times after a few attempts but of course depends on how well stuck on it is..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will It Ever Run Again Posted June 4, 2019 Author Share Posted June 4, 2019 Found a vid online with one idea I'll try tomorrow and report back: start car in gear on axle stands. With clutch pedal pushed in (wheels will still go around due to seized clutch) press hard on brake pedal. May need a 3rd leg to press accelerator at the same time. Repeat! Will let you know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPearce Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Yep, so the video you found matches glang's suggestion. I've also (on a Dolomite) managed to free up a stuck clutch using the handbrake (same method but only needs two feet) but that may not work so well on a Spitfire.Another method, only suitable if you have a large open yard, is to warm the engine up thoroughly, stop it, put the car in gear, start the engine again with the clutch hard down and then kangaroo it until the clutch releases. As I said, a large open space is needed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will It Ever Run Again Posted June 5, 2019 Author Share Posted June 5, 2019 Thank you both. I tried the suggestion using the wheels off the ground but could only use the handbrake as the brakes are playing up now! Anyway it didn't work but I'm going to bleed the clutch fluid through before I try again because the reservoir is dry. It could therefore simply be a lack of hydraulic pressure. Is there a way to check the slave cylinder is working? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 Its very likely this is the problem but to bleed the system your going to need to get to the slave cylinder which is in a different location to my car, alongside the gearbox. I think the access to the bleed nipple is from underneath the car and looks pretty tight plus unfortunately I cant see any way to physically check its working correctly afterwards. If you have air in the system I would have thought the pedal feels pretty soft and then once bled quite a bit harder as it operates against the clutch diaphragm spring.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 I forgot, of course the other thing to ask is: where did the clutch fluid disappear to? It can only leak from the seal on the end of the master cylinder under the rubber cover (easy to check) or the slave cylinder into the bell housing (harder to check although it might eventually run out of the the bottom drain hole)🙁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPearce Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 The clutch bleed nipple on a Spitfire is only really accessible after you remove the gearbox cover, which requires removal of the H-frame dash support first. Many people recommend one of two "fixes" for this: either cut a hole in the gearbox cover to give access (and add a cover plate that can be removed more easily, or fit a remote bleed nipple where you can get to it (basically a length of brake pipe from the slave to a union bolted on the engine somewhere, and put the bleed nipple in that union). Both fixes can only really be done once the cover's off, though. Once you have the gearbox cover off, you should check that the clutch release arm pivot pin is still properly in place on the RHS of the bell housing. You can't see the release arm on a 4-cyl to check for clutch operation (you can see it on the GT6/Vitesse, Dolomite 1850, or any of the big saloons, just not the 1200/1300/1500 type). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will It Ever Run Again Posted June 5, 2019 Author Share Posted June 5, 2019 Righto, thanks very much all I'll dig a little. Gearbox cover off isn't a massive job so I'll have a gander. No idea where the fluid went to. Taken by aliens with dodgy brakes probably. I'll let you know what I find out. I should be able to take a look tomorrow. Many thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 ok and, as always, please let us know how you get on🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will It Ever Run Again Posted June 6, 2019 Author Share Posted June 6, 2019 Howdy, Managed to bleed the clutch fluid through ok but it hasn't made any difference to the issue. Quoted from RobPearce- Once you have the gearbox cover off, you should check that the clutch release arm pivot pin is still properly in place on the RHS of the bell housing. You can't see the release arm on a 4-cyl to check for clutch operation (you can see it on the GT6/Vitesse, Dolomite 1850, or any of the big saloons, just not the 1200/1300/1500 type). Could you please tell me about the pivot pin? I have a gearbox from another Spit I'll be restoring once I've sorted this one, and i can see a pin sticking out of the RHS of the bellhousing. There isn't one on the car I'm working on at the moment but if i stick a thin screwdriver in the hole it'll only go down 5mm or so before reaching something. I had no gearbox issues when I drove the car into the garage and it's not moved since so surely the entire pin can't be missing can it? Do they always stick out? I guess the only way to check is gearbox off? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will It Ever Run Again Posted June 6, 2019 Author Share Posted June 6, 2019 One thing I could do is take off the slave cyl. I could then see if it actually does anything when I push in the pedal. I'll also be able to see the rod left behind (sticking out of the bellhousing) and see if it moves in and out freely. I do have another slave cyl on the other gearbox i could try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 Yes I think while youve got this far its worth pulling out the slave and checking the push rod. It looks like this too is held by a pin in the release arm so by moving the push rod you should be able to feel if this pin plus the release arm pivot pin are all correct. The release arm should move in and out a little but of course you wont be able to operate the clutch itself with your fingers. As to testing the operation of the slave while it is out be careful because if you press on the pedal the slave piston will move forward (it cant come right out) and may not return because it hasnt got the clutch to push it back. It should just be a case of pushing it back with something but watch out for the fluid level in the master cylinder as you do so.... At the end of the day its entirely possible that the system is all working fine but the friction plate is still stuck on the flywheel/pressure plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will It Ever Run Again Posted June 6, 2019 Author Share Posted June 6, 2019 Thanks for the reply. I took off the slave and by default the piston inside is in the 'out' position (a little in from being about flush with the end of the cyl housing) but I am able to push it in about 1cm with a finger. When I let go it comes back out again. If I push it in and then depress the clutch pedal the piston in the slave comes out and pushes my finger out too. Does this sound like it's operating normally? The push rod in the bellhousing moves freely in and out and seems to be the same as that in my other gearbox (I took the slave off that to compare) so I'm guessing that's correct. If the slave is doing as it should then I guess the next step is clutch replacement which will probably require a whole load more posts on this forum! Actually it doesn't seem too horrendous a job but no doubt issues will crop up. Anyway if someone could confirm the slave seems to be doing as it should I'll take the plunge. Thanks Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 I would have expected more movement on the slave than that but it might be that youre not pushing its piston back in as far as it goes when its installed against the push rod. However the fact that it is moved by the pedal seems to indicate its working correctly and I would imagine that by now the pedal is quite solid so cant be operated because the piston is at the end of its travel? I think if the pedal does still depress theres a problem with the master cylinder..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will It Ever Run Again Posted June 6, 2019 Author Share Posted June 6, 2019 Quoted from glang- …... and I would imagine that by now the pedal is quite solid so cant be operated because the piston is at the end of its travel? I think if the pedal does still depress theres a problem with the master cylinder..... Not entirely sure what you mean. If i push in the piston with a finger and then press the clutch pedal, the piston pushes my finger out. I can repeat this process without the clutch pedal going at all solid. I had figured the master cyl was Ok as I'd been able to bleed the slave. It pushed fluid through so isn't the master doing it's job? Thanks for help on this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPearce Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 Quoted from Will It Ever Run Again- Could you please tell me about the pivot pin? I have a gearbox from another Spit I'll be restoring once I've sorted this one, and i can see a pin sticking out of the RHS of the bellhousing. There isn't one on the car I'm working on at the moment but if i stick a thin screwdriver in the hole it'll only go down 5mm or so before reaching something. I had no gearbox issues when I drove the car into the garage and it's not moved since so surely the entire pin can't be missing can it? Do they always stick out? I guess the only way to check is gearbox off? The pivot pin is a rod, about two or three inches long and 5/16" diameter, held in place by crinkle tubes. It should not "stick out" at all. And yes, they do just fall out, so it could easily be missing. If it is missing, the RH end of the clutch release arm will be mis-aligned and your screwdriver will not go very deep before hitting the edge of it. That said, a missing pivot pin often doesn't result in complete loss of clutch, but in combination with a stuck driven plate it would likely make it impossible to unstick by the jack-up-and-brake method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will It Ever Run Again Posted June 6, 2019 Author Share Posted June 6, 2019 As far as I remember, the pedal would be solid when the piston was at the end of it's travel but that was at the end of the pedal's travel anyway and was pretty much up to the bulkhead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 Quoted from Will It Ever Run Again- Quoted from glang- …... and I would imagine that by now the pedal is quite solid so cant be operated because the piston is at the end of its travel? I think if the pedal does still depress theres a problem with the master cylinder..... Not entirely sure what you mean. If i push in the piston with a finger and then press the clutch pedal, the piston pushes my finger out. I can repeat this process without the clutch pedal going at all solid. I had figured the master cyl was Ok as I'd been able to bleed the slave. It pushed fluid through so isn't the master doing it's job? Thanks for help on this! If you look at a diagram of a MC it has two seals, one for pushing the fluid to the slave and another that closes off the reservoir. If the second leaks slightly then when theres no load on the slave it all works ok but when there is load such as when operating the clutch or the slave piston reaching the end of its travel the hydraulic pressure increases and fluid flows back into the reservoir as the pedal goes down. It feels like normal operation but isnt actually doing anything! This is 100% demonstrated by still having a moveable pedal when the slave piston cant go any further.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitumen Boy Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 +1. It can still happen with new seals in the master cylinder as the small parts that work with that small valve seal do wear with time. I resealed a clutch m/c a few times, when it failed again within a few months of last being done I fitted a new m/c. No more problems and the gearchange is nicer than ever before - I reckon the old master cylinder had been allowing the clutch to drag slightly for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will It Ever Run Again Posted June 6, 2019 Author Share Posted June 6, 2019 I see! That would explain a lot actually. Thank you. Righto, I'll try my other M/C first but that's off a '79 so only 2 years less decrepit. A new one might be a good idea. Father's day soon isn't it!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 but have you proved it? It should be: Slave piston fully out, system bled 100%, pedal moves but rapidly goes hard..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will It Ever Run Again Posted June 6, 2019 Author Share Posted June 6, 2019 No I haven't but I'll have a try tomorrow. I understand far more now so thanks for your help so far. This forum is completely brilliant isn't it!? 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 Hey you cant say that until and if the problem is solved😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will It Ever Run Again Posted June 7, 2019 Author Share Posted June 7, 2019 Quoted from glang- Hey you cant say that until and if the problem is solved😉 Yes I can! The fact that people put in the effort to help at all is fabulous. 😉 I'll try the other M/C today and order a new one if no help. Speak soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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