Brake pads

[Nick Jones]

Hi All,

I have two Triumphs. A '65 Herald 1200 Saloon and 67 Vitesse convertible. The Herald is much modified and has the complete Vitesse braking system. Neither car has a servo and both systems are in good order. Both have the same bore master cylinder.

The thing is, although both cars have identical braking systems, the Herald brakes have great bite and really pull the car up well. The Vitesse brakes lack bite and you really have to stomp on it to stop.

I realise the Vitesse is a bit heavier, but not, I think, enough to make this much difference.

I assume the difference is down to the pads. As far as I can remember, the Herald has Lockheed original old stock pads in it, these came with an abrasive layer to help them bed in and no doubt are asbestos based. The Vitesse did have some ordinary modern pads - asbestos free. These were awful - no bite at all and impossible to lock the wheels - just too hard I reckon. More recently I've fitted EBC Green stuff pads having first thoroughly deglazed the discs. These now have nearly 1000 miles on them (so they should be bedded in) and while better than before, they are still pretty unimpressive. I'm not talking extreme driving, glowing discs stuff here, just everyday commuting.

I could (I suppose) fit a servo, but the Herald stops so well without I reckon it shouldn't be necessary with the right pads.

So, anyone out there have some good pad experiences? I don't care if they wear out quicker - I don't do that many miles - but would like to be able to stop without bending the pedal. Ideas/comments gratefully received!

Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse MK 2 Megasquirt EFI
Herald 1200 (13/90)

[Herald Freak]

I found the Greenstuff pads far worce than standard pads when it came down to bite,
Im open to correction here but i think that Heralds had either type 12 or type 14 calipers,
I know i have Type 14 in my dolly with braded hoses and Mintex (1144)pads can lock wheels at 50mph loads of bite from cold,  The Herald brakes are not as good can feel the hoses flexing when braking hard, Pretty sure they are type 14. Also think there is a choice of bore sizes for rear wheel cyls.
All things worth checking.
Remember the smaller the master cyl the more braking effort

[Smallfry]

Ah yes......Lockheed pads, asbestos based and came in yellow and black boxes. Marvellous things ! I remember having these on an old Sunbeam Rapier, and you could nearly stand the thing on its nose. You could really "feel" them gripping the discs. I replaced them with some Ferodo pads, and in comparison they were rubbish, and I put the old Lockheed ones back in to get the last knockings out of them.(this was back in the late seventies)

While we are down memory lane, I also seem to remember that you could get a much better solid feel with the old Girling Crimson fluid too, and being miffed when I replaced it the all new "Universal" stuff that we still use nowadays.........well some do, I now use exclusively silicone in everything.

I have tried Greenstuff pads, and I agree that there does not seem to be much discernable improvement in braking power, but they are much more resistant to fade.
Worth the extra money ? I am still not sure !

As usual I feel that modern alternatives are not as good as asbestos in braking parts, and also in the building industry. They just do not last as long, or do as good a job.

Its the same with lead based paint. Any modern alternative is just not anything like as good. Look at how quickly wooden window frames rot now, in comparison to how they lasted many years ago.

I cannot offer you any suggestions for improvement !

[heraldcoupe]

The autojumble is your friend.
I'm not sure how current legislation stands, but there has been dispensation that has allowed NOS (new old stock) asbestos parts to be sold by part time traders. This dispensation may now have expired, I'm uncertain, but I still see plenty of asbestos brake pads and shoes for sale at  jumbles. Beaulieu is the biggest jumble in Europe and that's coming up on September 10th/11th.
Sadly, I'm not allowed to sell anything with asbestos as I'm a professional trader, but it doesn't stop me using asbestos linings on my own cars......
Cheers,
Bill.

[Jason]

I know a trader who uses only the finest second hand pads pulled from old calipers that come in for reconditioning - far better than the new stuff he sells but of course what you can legally sell to a punter and what you prefer to use yourself are two separate things! I like Green Stuff myself

[phil866]

I think its all down to the pads too.  If you are still considering fitting a servo just remember that servos do not make brakes more effecient or improve bad brakes. You won't stop any better with a servo than without. Better trying to find the root cause.  Happy hunting!

[heraldcoupe]

I've been selling Greenstuff for the last few months, sales of other non-asbestos pads had dropped almost to zero, nobody seemed to want anything but Greenstuff. I've not had a Herald on the road recently so I've not had an opportunity to try these out for myself yet. This isn't a situation I like as I always try to sell parts I am happy to fit to my own cars. I should be able to put this right in the next couple of weeks as I am reverting to a Herald for daily transport.
Cheers,
Bill.

[Tim Bancroft]

I run greenstuff pads in both my cars:

GT6: Fitted these too her just before last years TR Reg. Mallory park track day and found them to be superb- I was out braking TR's and they seemed to offer loads of feel. Still in the car and very good- had a moment on the LCC last June, locked up in the rain- cadence braked and they pulled me up just in time to stop hitting the side of a coach!

2.5: Not so sure on the Greenstuff performance on this car- up until getting the servo re-built did i have any confidence in the brakes of the car- however much better since this re-build- however the brakes ar not as good as the GT6- obviously down to vehicle weight.

Nick- I reckon your problems could be attributable to weight and also the speed of the car- I assume that you do drive the Vit. quicker!

Whilst on , when are we going to see some snaps of the cars?

[Nick Jones]

Phil,

I know a servo won't improve the actual efficiency, but the pedal pressure on the Vitesse is unacceptably high and the lack of bite does not inspire confidence.  However, I don't really want to fit a servo, would prefer to get the effect from softer pads (which seems to be why the Herald brakes work better).

The purpose of my original post was to find out whether any one had any suggestions as to what might do the trick and where to get them.  So far the message seems to be to track down some old asbestos based pads.

Tim,

I will concede the extra weight, but given the Herald has overdrive with a single rail box and cast iron bell housing (that 'box is unbelievably heavy!), I doubt the differential is that great.  Speed - well I don't often drive the Herald these days and the engine is now somewhat detuned, but it used to be somewhere around 100 - 110 bhp and so cammy you just had to thrash it - all the time - as soon as you fired it up the red mist would descend.  The Vitesse has a more relaxed engine and tends to get treated more gently.

It used to stop fine, then I wore out whatever pads the rolling chassis came with, fitted the asbestos free ones and all of a sudden, the brakes were rubbish.  The Green Stuff ones are better, but  not as good as I would like. 

I am familiar with the effect you describe - when I stuck a 1500 engine in the Herald (many years ago) upgrading from an early 1200 lump, all of a sudden the standard Herald discs seemed very rubbish!  Hence the Vitesse ones.

Good idea about snaps - new thread needed!