Cold starting/slow cranking engine

[yorkshire_spam]

Spitfire 1500 1978
Seems to restart fine once warm - but really struggles to crank over when cold.

I've tried it with the booster hooked up to the battery to see if it's simply that the battery is not holding charge - still no start
I've bridged out the solenoid to see if the solenoid/contacts are to blame - still no improvement.
I've re-built the starter motor - new bushes and brushes - it bench tests fine, but back on the car it's back to slow cranking and not starting.

So although it could still be the starter motor, I'm beginning to wonder if it's something engine related. Wrong oil grade maybe? Or maybe something really nasty in the crank/piston department?

What do you guys think?

[Hogie]

Hi Sam,
            clean ALL the connectors from the battery + & - cables.
Remove and clean ALL the earth cables to engine and chassis/body form ther battery.
I also have fitted an earth strap from battery direct to engine rather than relying on a possible path via the body.
Clean the inside of the battery connectors.


You only need the odd volt dropped to kill a cold engine/battery.

Roger

[Richard B]

Wot he said!

I have soldered battery leads on all the cars. You can get the parts from "Vehicle Wiring Products" and others.

Make yourself three new cables to fit you car.

Battery to Solenoid, Solenoid to Starter, Battery earth to Engine



Great fun soldering with a blow torch (on low) and then use heat shrink to tidy up the ends of the insulation   8)

[Velocita Rosso]

What is your battery `cranking ` amps rate, this is more important
You should be looking at around 620

[yorkshire_spam]

Thanks for the tips guys I'll go down the electrical route a bit further before I start to panic too much.
Will check the earthing and see what I find - I checked resistance between the -ve battery terminal and the starter casing before I stripped the starter off and it seemed pretty low (iirc a couple of ohms, no more)

[yorkshire_spam]

michael_charlton wrote:

What is your battery `cranking ` amps rate, this is more important
You should be looking at around 620

Been wondering about that - starting to think that maybe having the booster on it when starting doesn't rule the battery out as a previously thought.

[yorkshire_spam]

michael_charlton wrote:

What is your battery `cranking ` amps rate, this is more important
You should be looking at around 620

Can you recommend a battery - all the 078 that would fit the battery box look like around the 500-550 CCA ?

[Velocita Rosso]

6797 wrote:

Can you recommend a battery - all the 078 that would fit the battery box look like around the 500-550 CCA ?

You have PM

[yorkshire_spam]

Starting to wonder about engine issues here - I can't get it to turn over at all now - just clicks rolled backwards down the drive with it in reverse - popped the clutch and just stopped rolling. :-(

[piman]

Hello VR,

"You should be looking at around 620"

That seems a bit over the top for a four cylinder engine, my Scimitar (3 litre Ford Essex engine) copes quite happily on a 320 CCA battery?

Alec

[thebrookster]

6797 wrote:

Starting to wonder about engine issues here - I can't get it to turn over at all now - just clicks rolled backwards down the drive with it in reverse - popped the clutch and just stopped rolling. :-(

I would expect that?? Reverse is usually a very low ratio gear, in fact if you read about older cars you will find mention of people having to reverse up hills, as the reverse was commonly lower than 1st gear!!

There is a reason you are reccomended to bump start in a higher gear (I usually use 3rd!!).

When it is running, I presume there are no issues?

Have you changed the battery?

At this time of year, these symptoms normally indicate a failing battery, quite a common problem when the cold weather hits. How old is it??

You seem to have ruled out the starter motor, so most likely to be wiring, solenoid or battery.

Battery, easiest way is to replace tbh.

Earth - grab a jump lead, clean a bit of engine to clean metal, connect one end of lead there and the other to -ve terminal on battery. If cranking speed changes then you have a strong suspect.

+ve wiring - if you feel brave, you can try a jump lead direct from +ve on battery to terminal on starter. This bypasses the key, so make sure car is out of gear!! Also, wear a pair of gloves, and for GOD's sake take care!!!!!!!! You are playing with a large amount of power there, and if you electrocute yourself it WILL hurt!

If none of these makes a difference, then look at the engine, but I would go with wiring first. Apart from owt else, it is the cheaper bit to check :)

Cheers,

Phil

[yorkshire_spam]

thebrookster wrote:

Earth - grab a jump lead, clean a bit of engine to clean metal, connect one end of lead there and the other to -ve terminal on battery. If cranking speed changes then you have a strong suspect.

+ve wiring - if you feel brave, you can try a jump lead direct from +ve on battery to terminal on starter. This bypasses the key, so make sure car is out of gear!! Also, wear a pair of gloves, and for GOD's sake take care!!!!!!!! You are playing with a large amount of power there, and if you electrocute yourself it WILL hurt!

Phil,
Done both these things - slight increase in crank speed with a jump lead from 1 starter bolt to the negative.
A jump lead from +ve to the starter terminal made no difference.
BUT - even with both of these AND the booster on the battery it won't turn over at all now - just clicks when I "ping" the solenoid. If I jump lead +ve to the starter I get a big fat spark, and nothing else.

Take your point about reverse being too low though. Tried turning it over without spark plugs, still nothing, tried turning the crank pulley by hand - can't turn it.

[thebrookster]

6797 wrote:

Phil,
Done both these things - slight increase in crank speed with a jump lead from 1 starter bolt to the negative.
A jump lead from +ve to the starter terminal made no difference.
BUT - even with both of these AND the booster on the battery it won't turn over at all now - just clicks when I "ping" the solenoid. If I jump lead +ve to the starter I get a big fat spark, and nothing else.

Take your point about reverse being too low though. Tried turning it over without spark plugs, still nothing, tried turning the crank pulley by hand - can't turn it.

Just occurs to me, having read your thread in the Spitfire section, you mention you have just rebuilt the starter motor. Is there any chance this has gone wrong, and is jamming somewhere?? I am trying to think "backwards" here, and eliminating each possibility in turn.

It is easier to pull the the starter than rebuild an engine ;)

[yorkshire_spam]

thebrookster wrote:

Just occurs to me, having read your thread in the Spitfire section, you mention you have just rebuilt the starter motor. Is there any chance this has gone wrong, and is jamming somewhere?? I am trying to think "backwards" here, and eliminating each possibility in turn.

It is easier to pull the the starter than rebuild an engine ;)

I did the starter in the first place because of the slow cranking problem.
Soooooo.... I'll pull it off again and check it over.
As you say - much easier to do that than rebuild the engine.
I know a guy at work who thinks he might have a spare engine/starter - so if he has I'll swap the starter and if that's no good I'll swap the engine and then look into the problem (if it is with the current engine)

[thebrookster]

Can you stick your voltmeter on the battery, and see what voltage it is putting out as well??

Whilst it is looking like something else might be the issue, the more information you can give us the more we can argue needlessly over  :P :P

TBH, I am still unconvinced the engine is going to be causing the issues, as you said in your original post it initially was having problems starting when cold, but was fine when warmed up. I would have expected the opposite, if something was jamming in the engine it should be worse when all the metal has heated up and expanded!! I may well be barking up the wrong tree, but that is my thinking currently.

[yorkshire_spam]

thebrookster wrote:

Can you stick your voltmeter on the battery, and see what voltage it is putting out as well??

Whilst it is looking like something else might be the issue, the more information you can give us the more we can argue needlessly over  :P :P

TBH, I am still unconvinced the engine is going to be causing the issues, as you said in your original post it initially was having problems starting when cold, but was fine when warmed up. I would have expected the opposite, if something was jamming in the engine it should be worse when all the metal has heated up and expanded!! I may well be barking up the wrong tree, but that is my thinking currently.

I'll see about getting a volt meter on it tomorrow evening. I've thrown the tools down in disgust for today.
I'm happy to be convinced that it's something other than the engine.... something cheaper is always preferable!
Never had trouble starting when warm before, but now I can't get it started no matter what.
Very annoying.

[Richard B]

Did you try turning the starter over before fitting to the car? Watch the torque though.  :-/

Pair of jump leads and either a good vise or a strong foot in steel toecap boots to pin it down.

[yorkshire_spam]

Hmmm good point Richard
I did run the starter before I fitted it to the car, but thinking about it, it didn't kick that hard or run that fast. Hmmmmmm. More to think about.

[junkuser]

What does the engine feel like if you turn it over using a spanner on the crankshaft pulley bolt?

[yorkshire_spam]

junkuser wrote:

What does the engine feel like if you turn it over using a spanner on the crankshaft pulley bolt?

If I had a spanner big enough I'd try it! ;-) Even my adjustable isn't that big. So I'm gonna pick up a socket the right size tomorrow and give it a try!

[GT6 M]

Id put LooT ont bat first.

Just cos yer batts showing good volts, dis nae mean its in good fettle.
put a hydro meter on, see what each cell says.
one could be braking doon under load.

then try this, if above Ok

Check it has a good earth.
volt meter on starter power lead and earth, see what its showing when cranking
volt meter on starter start cable, see what its pulling  when starting
any diff will be thru solonoid bit, dirty contacts in there will reduce power
so it will just click, instead of cranking. { pre engaged  type !!! }

M

[yorkshire_spam]

I guess I'll get the starter back off, get it free rotates, check the engine rotates ok and then look at a decent battery etc. sort the electricals (assuming the engine turns over ok)

[thebrookster]

And just double check the car isn't in gear!!

I don't mean to teach granny about eggs etc, however I know I have several times puzzled over why I can't turn my engine by hand, only to discover I left the darn thing in gear!!

[Velocita Rosso]

piman wrote:

Hello VR,

"You should be looking at around 620"

That seems a bit over the top for a four cylinder engine, my Scimitar (3 litre Ford Essex engine) copes quite happily on a 320 CCA battery?

Alec

Not over the top, just a better turn over without any increase in cost or going to a Hi torque starter
We have a good local trade company and offer good prices on higher quality gear so take advantage of better specs

[yorkshire_spam]

Starting to think the battery is the issue  - stripped the starter back off the motor and tried it on a spare battery that I charged overnight in the garage - it kicked and flew round as I'd expect.
I can JUST turn the front pulley by hand on the engine, so I guess it's not seized (managed to trap my finger between the pulley and the steering rack though as it went round - swore a bit!)