Banksy82 Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 I have been driving my spitfire around a little the last few days and noticed it was a little squirrely under braking so thought I would would spend a relaxing afternoon checking and adjusting all of the brakes. Imagine my surprise to find the O/S rear wheel shimmed and a pronounced wobble on the drum. (Picture and video attached) Runout measured on the drum face is 1.6mm ~.063” and max difference on the four corners of the hub is 1.3mm. Runout on the drum on the near side was also evident at around 1mm but no washers present. Notably the car didn’t shake or vibrate excessively and the rear is not terribly noisy - a steady thrum at 60mph. The paperwork that came with the car suspiciously shows an order for two rear wheel bearing kits so I surmise that someone has attempted / succeeded in removing the rear hubs with an inappropriate tool bending the drive flange. Any tips on the best course of action here. Can I remove the flanges and just replace with new / not bent used or does this kind of damage usually lead to bent shafts as well? I understand that when the needle bearing goes it invariably takes out the shaft with it. Is there any way of checking this on the car? As an aside the slave cylinder on the off side has come adrift of its mounting which is probably a consequence of the runout and a probable culprit for my braking issue! This is a ‘73 spitfire comm no 52600 so I believe is the long driveshaft. Any advice / experience gladly accepted! Thanks Karl IMG_9174.MOV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy82 Posted November 28, 2022 Author Share Posted November 28, 2022 Video appears to be download only - if there is a way to embed I'll try again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPearce Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 The video looks like the shaft is wobbling a bit, so it might be bent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 Thats horrible but the threaded tip of the shaft seems to run true so as you say it could just be the hub distorted which is very easily done because its so soft (I know). Can you run it again without the drum and see what thats like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy82 Posted November 28, 2022 Author Share Posted November 28, 2022 9 minutes ago, RobPearce said: The video looks like the shaft is wobbling a bit, so it might be bent. It could well be but the video may be a little deceiving as there is a lump of underseal / grease / general detritus stuck to the shaft and the flange catches the dislodged slave cylinder wobbling it and the attached handbrake lever.. I'll clean up and try an indicator on the shaft tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 If only the hub you need to remove it with the correct tool and once the studs are out machine the face flat again in a lathe or replace it. Very difficult to assess the needle bearing/shaft without pulling it apart as its just a steady bearing and most load is taken on the ball race bearing. I suppose eventually it'll get noisy but most people only open them up when replacing the main bearing and then find the shaft needs changing as well.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy82 Posted November 28, 2022 Author Share Posted November 28, 2022 12 minutes ago, glang said: Thats horrible but the threaded tip of the shaft seems to run true so as you say it could just be the hub distorted which is very easily done because its so soft (I know). Can you run it again without the drum and see what thats like? I did take a video with drum off (attached) it is really hard to see even with the video slowed down as the flange is square(ish) so getting a visual reference is hard! IMG_9176.MOV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy82 Posted November 28, 2022 Author Share Posted November 28, 2022 9 minutes ago, glang said: If only the hub you need to remove it with the correct tool and once the studs are out machine the face flat again in a lathe or replace it. Very difficult to assess the needle bearing/shaft without pulling it apart as its just a steady bearing and most load is taken on the ball race bearing. I suppose eventually it'll get noisy but most people only open them up when replacing the main bearing and then find the shaft needs changing as well.... The flange is only 6mm thick - I'm inclined to think machining 1.6mm ~25% of that thickness might be too much? If I'm pulling the hub I'd be sorely tempted to change the bearing while I was at it and then just turn a blind eye to the state of the shaft? Alternatively I'm thinking of trying to obtain a pair of used long drive shafts with hubs and back plates still installed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 yes you have a point about the flange😁 Shaft looks good to me in second vid though. With any secondhand shafts you wont know what the bearings are like so why not just whack another hub on it and drive👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy82 Posted November 28, 2022 Author Share Posted November 28, 2022 2 hours ago, glang said: yes you have a point about the flange😁 Shaft looks good to me in second vid though. With any secondhand shafts you wont know what the bearings are like so why not just whack another hub on it and drive👍 Thank you for being the voice of reason - I can very easily get carried away! I'll try and track down a couple of good original hubs and just get on with it! I was really only thinking about avoiding getting hold of or making the correct puller. I'll add one of those to my list too! Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
standardthread Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 (edited) Spanner in the works? Has the wheel been 'shimmed' because of a bent rim? I would have thought to work out the dimensions of the 'shims' the previous owner had access to a degree of engineering dti's etc. or knew the rim was bent, or they bent it? Edited November 28, 2022 by standardthread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy82 Posted November 28, 2022 Author Share Posted November 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, standardthread said: Spanner in the works? Has the wheel been 'shimmed' because of a bent rim? I would have thought to work out the dimensions of the 'shims' the previous owner had access to a degree of engineering dti's etc. I’ll remount both wheels with the shims back in place tomorrow and measure runout on both sides and do some swopping around to try and learn more about the wheels. Also in the paperwork are a couple of invoices from garages to fit supplied parts so although the PO bought some replacement bearings I would imagine it was taken to a garage for installation… I can almost visualise a 2 arm puller and a rattle gun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 26 minutes ago, standardthread said: Has the wheel been 'shimmed' because of a bent rim? I would have thought to work out the dimensions of the 'shims' the previous owner had access to a degree of engineering dti's etc. or knew the rim was bent, or they bent it? I think thats unlikely because it would mean the hub AND rim are bent😯 Most probable is that the hub got bent and then it wouldnt take much trial and error, even by eye, to work out where to put spacers to push the wheel back roughly true.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thescrapman Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 And old Front hub / upright in a vice good for checking if rims are bent, so time for swapping wheels round 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
standardthread Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 14 hours ago, glang said: I think thats unlikely because it would mean the hub AND rim are bent😯 Most probable is that the hub got bent and then it wouldnt take much trial and error, even by eye, to work out where to put spacers to push the wheel back roughly true.... But to true a hub up would logically mean any shims would have to be inside the brake drum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drofgum Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 30 minutes ago, standardthread said: But to true a hub up would logically mean any shims would have to be inside the brake drum? True, but if the intent is to make the car roll more smoothly shims where shown in the pics are sufficient. Regards, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy82 Posted November 29, 2022 Author Share Posted November 29, 2022 40 minutes ago, standardthread said: But to true a hub up would logically mean any shims would have to be inside the brake drum? Yes that would have been a better solution - however it isn't what they did! The drum was installed onto the bent hub and has/had a decent wobble to it. The wheel was then bolted on to the now wobbling drum and spacers used to correct the wheel wobble. Unfortunately, but not unexpectedly the drum run out has caused the wheel cylinder clips to vibrate out due to the shoes trying to conform to the now untrue drum lining and release the handbrake pivot all causing the braking issue. Just to top it off the drum itself has been cracked - I can only assume from being tightened down onto a bent hub! All in all a pretty poor effort at a repair! 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannyb Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 I bent one of my hubs many years ago, using the wrong type of puller. Never noticed until a lorry driver sain my back wheel was wobbling. Swapped wheels and still wobbling. Sourced a good second hand one and brought the correct puller. Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy82 Posted November 29, 2022 Author Share Posted November 29, 2022 28 minutes ago, Dannyb said: I bent one of my hubs many years ago, using the wrong type of puller. Never noticed until a lorry driver sain my back wheel was wobbling. Swapped wheels and still wobbling. Sourced a good second hand one and brought the correct puller. Danny I'm hoping it will be as simple as that! Do you remember where you got the puller from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 2 hours ago, Banksy82 said: Yes that would have been a better solution - however it isn't what they did! The drum was installed onto the bent hub and has/had a decent wobble to it. The wheel was then bolted on to the now wobbling drum and spacers used to correct the wheel wobble. Unfortunately, but not unexpectedly the drum run out has caused the wheel cylinder clips to vibrate out due to the shoes trying to conform to the now untrue drum lining and release the handbrake pivot all causing the braking issue. Just to top it off the drum itself has been cracked - I can only assume from being tightened down onto a bent hub! All in all a pretty poor effort at a repair! 🙂 However if you put spacers between hub and drum the latter will be even more misplaced with respect to the brake shoes! This has got to be one for the black museum surely😨 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannyb Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 49 minutes ago, Banksy82 said: I'm hoping it will be as simple as that! Do you remember where you got the puller from? Second hand on ebay A bargain at £40. You just don't see them anymore. They are about £100 from Rimmers. Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 Nobody in your area who might lend one out? Or maybe even a workshop that might have something suitable? Buying something like that which will get so little use is a shame... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy82 Posted November 29, 2022 Author Share Posted November 29, 2022 11 minutes ago, glang said: However if you put spacers between hub and drum the latter will be even more misplaced with respect to the brake shoes! This has got to be one for the black museum surely😨 It really is a bizarre thing! The bearings were bought in 2012 so if the damage happened then we are talking 10 years of use in this state! Admittedly it hasn't done many miles in that time... The last recodred mileage in the paperwork in 72k in 2008 and it is only on 74 now! I wonder why 😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy82 Posted November 29, 2022 Author Share Posted November 29, 2022 20 minutes ago, Dannyb said: Second hand on ebay A bargain at £40. You just don't see them anymore. They are about £100 from Rimmers. Danny I remember seeing them from time to time at that sort of price on eBay when I had my last spitfire... No such luck now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy82 Posted November 29, 2022 Author Share Posted November 29, 2022 3 minutes ago, glang said: Nobody in your area who might lend one out? Or maybe even a workshop that might have something suitable? Buying something like that which will get so little use is a shame... I'm in mid North Wales and there doesn't seem to be a great deal of activity out here! They are much more money than I would like to spend on a likely 2 or 3 use tool over my lifetime but I usually don't need much excuse to acquire tools. He who dies with the most tools wins! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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