TR7 Fuel Injection

[Matt306]

 

Right so this is sort of the finished article in terms of wiring as you can see I have wrapped it all in loom tape. The strut brace allows for the loom to be attached in place with some zip ties.   I got a bit lucky here as i forget to test fit the brace with the plenum in.

I have soldered in 4 5ohm 25w resistors to protect the ECU as speeduino doesnt like to play with Low-Z injectors.

 

I have yet to add an Idle control Valve. The tuning software does allow for this so adjusts for this.

 

Below is the engine revving it needs a run on the road, but is revving freely

Edited January 5, 2022 by Matt306

[Matt306]

Last video the car is on idle, yes its rock solid not moving an inch something i never managed on Carbs.

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Matt306

[yorkshire_spam]

Awesome!

[Nick Jones]

👌👍🏻👏

[Matt306]

Update.... been out for our first drive with EFI.  Now essentially we are still driving an 8V OH Cam car so we have to accept limitation.... however what a remarkable difference. 

I had Tuner Studio running auto tune for my 20 mile drive out. The car is so different to the old hesitant twin carb set up. We accelerate far more willingly in any gear. Even managed to drop it into third for a couple of cheeky overtakes. 

[Gt6s]

On 06/01/2022 at 15:38, Matt306 said:

Update.... been out for our first drive with EFI.  Now essentially we are still driving an 8V OH Cam car so we have to accept limitation.... however what a remarkable difference. 

I had Tuner Studio running auto tune for my 20 mile drive out. The car is so different to the old hesitant twin carb set up. We accelerate far more willingly in any gear. Even managed to drop it into third for a couple of cheeky overtakes. 

Indeed EFI is very impressive. Get your 3D ignition properly set up.  Different ballgame again. Do not be afraid to dial in ignition advance untill she pings then dial her back just till it clears. Forget about the max 32 degrees nonsence THIS IS NOT A DISTRIBUTOR. (Dizzys are set to be SAFE at all Rpm even towing a caravan up a hill. Your 3D knows when you are not towing a caravan) Ignition advance can be whacked up quite a bit specially with standard lowerish compression. ( Mine is HIGH, ignition max advance still whacked up ) And keep your maps smooth There should be no big peaks or spikes, even dips. Smooth the graphs out.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Gt6s

[Matt306]

 

 

This is my load cell at the moment, I based it off the TR7 Dizzy mapping, taken from the manual. I added the Centrifugal and vacuum advance together +10 for the static timing to give a total advance.

It runs on E10 fuel which i think takes longer to ignite than old four star so i guess dialling in +2 degrees to everything may be a good idea.

 

[Gt6s]

Initially. You use your Dizzy curve added into Ign map These are you MINIMUM ADVANCE no need to even think of running below these figures. But I assume you realise this without saying. Those reading might not.

[Gt6s]

Saw an ignition map posted on another forum created by Dave Walker Maximum advance 33 degrees No wonder he cannot increase horsepower at the top end. MUST TRY HARDER DAVE. BTW when I was researching which ECU to buy I spoke with Dave Walker twice (20 years ago) NOT IMPRESSED by him at all.  Why I went DTA. Alan Warbuton of DTA really knew his stuff. Alan was not impressed when I quoted Walker to him either. My initial maps were based on a DTA sample intended for a full race Mini I converted this to six cylinder obviously.

[Matt306]

 

 

Below I have taken the values from the TR7 manual , you can see the book manual doesn't have many values particularly for the Vacuum advance which I have converted to Kpa to the left.  

So I add the centrifugal advance and  10 (the static advance) so it increases to a maximum of 28 Degrees BTDC then we add on the vacuum advance as well depending on load. The one snag I have is the book only gives 5 values for vacuum advance.  

 

 

 

Centrifugal       Engine RPM Min Max mean book manual 1 600 0 0 0 x 2 800 0 1 0.5   3 1000 0 2 1 x 4 1300 1.8 5 3.4   5 1800 3.7 7.7 5.7 x 6 2100 6 9.8 7.9   7 2400 8 12 10 x 8 2700 9 13 11   9 3200 10 14 12 x 10 4000 12 16 14   11 4800 14 18 16 x 12 5400 16 18 17   13 6000 18 18 18 x 14 6200 13 13 13   15 6700 6 6 6   16 7000 0 0 0 x                                                                 Vacuum       ins hg Min Max mean   10.15 3 0 0 0   16.93 5 2.6 9.34 5.97   23.7 7 12 16 14   33.86 10 12 16 14   67.72 20 16 16 16

[Matt306]

16 minutes ago, Gt6s said:

Saw an ignition map posted on another forum created by Dave Walker Maximum advance 33 degrees No wonder he cannot increase horsepower at the top end. MUST TRY HARDER DAVE. BTW when I was researching which ECU to buy I spoke with Dave Walker twice (20 years ago) NOT IMPRESSED by him at all.  Why I went DTA. Alan Warbuton of DTA really knew his stuff. Alan was not impressed when I quoted Walker to him either. My initial maps were based on a DTA sample intended for a full race Mini I converted this to six cylinder obviously.

Not sure of who Dave Walker or Alan Warburton are. I do know a David Walker from Club Triumph, a thoroughly pleasant chap I assume they are different people.  

[Gt6s]

1 hour ago, Matt306 said:

Not sure of who Dave Walker or Alan Warburton are. I do know a David Walker from Club Triumph, a thoroughly pleasant chap I assume they are different people.  

Dave Walker is a self proclaimed ECU expert who runs Emerald. He wrote for Cars and Car Conversions back when it was still published. Also wrote a Haynes manual on the subject (Had a look through that, again not impressed) He mentioned to me I MUST RUN RESISTOR PLUGS with EFI (This is A SERIOUS RFI problem with HIS Emerald ECU) As far as converting a Triumph he probably thought MOTORBIKE a he knew NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT INJECTION ON TRIUMPH CARS.

Alan Warbuton was the GO TO GUY at DTA. He knew REALLY well how to convert Triumph throttle bodies and trigger setup arangements to use. He claimed plug wise DTA will run ANY DAM PLUG ON ANY DAM ENGINE (Correct it will) My six would run very happily on even the worst plug. The specific thing he told me was I must not let plug leads touch as DTA ECU will then fire both plugs on the touching leads. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS. He also diagnosed being unable to save my maps (had to write the map and upload to ECU ) MAP changes could easily be done on the laptop on the road. But saving the map to laptop from the ECU could not happen. This he told me was down to a CRAPPY LAPTOP again EXACTLY RIGHT. Had to download FROM ECU to my then desktop.

[Matt306]

Different Dave Walker then. 

 

I use the Speeduino Ecu from DIY-EFI, Core 4 Ecu it runs my plugs very well . Its good ecu and good value for money. It allowed the adaptation of injection manifold which Triumph themselves made. The Injectiors used are low impedence though so i did need resistors in the loom.

[Matt306]

This is my present advance curve under  varying loads of the engine vs RPM

 

This is the advance curve generated from MSsquirt Initial Spark Advance Table Calculator (useasydocs.com)

 

 

The biggest difference being the load values which is each line

 

One final one shows the advance curve with little to no Quench as per the settings

 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Matt306

[Matt306]

A bit more of an update for you all.

We have been running for 5 months or so. I am largely very happy with the conversion providing far more torque.

 

I took the car for a rolling road dyno run with the bhp reaching 124 at the wheels.  Now the car was designed to generate 106 on carbs etc so I'll take this as an improvement. Only other engine changes are a 4 branch manifold and the k&n air filter.

I am suffering from hot air coming into the intake so I need to route the filter to the front but space is tight.

 

I can't recommend tunerstudio MS enough especially for the autotune for the fuel table.

 

Going forward  I want to get another engine so I can rebuild it mines on 88000 miles so a rebuild would be good.

 

[Amy Wade]

On 22/06/2021 at 22:26, Nick Jones said:

Yep, also interested.  Have done a few megasquirts on  6 cylinder cars and my son has Speeduino on his Spitfire.  The Speeduino was somewhat more troublesome, but I think we've got most of the bugs out of it now.

Are you going wasted spark/coilpack on the ignition?  We used a VAG coil with built in ignitors on the Spitfire, which can be triggered directly from the Speeduino ECU.

Nick

Edit: Also meant to say, you should definitely pick up some mpg and a few extra horses, but these best bit will like be the increased torque spread and driveability that brings, which is as much as result of the map-able ignition as the injection itself.

I'm interested in injection on my Spitfire, I'd love to find out more. Perhaps you could start a new thread. 

[spitfire7669]

On 22/06/2021 at 22:26, Nick Jones said:

Yep, also interested.  Have done a few megasquirts on  6 cylinder cars and my son has Speeduino on his Spitfire.  The Speeduino was somewhat more troublesome, but I think we've got most of the bugs out of it now.

Are you going wasted spark/coilpack on the ignition?  We used a VAG coil with built in ignitors on the Spitfire, which can be triggered directly from the Speeduino ECU.

Nick

Edit: Also meant to say, you should definitely pick up some mpg and a few extra horses, but these best bit will like be the increased torque spread and driveability that brings, which is as much as result of the map-able ignition as the injection itself.

Hi,

I'd like to know more on the speeduino problems encountered as i would like to fit one to my 1500 spit to control spark and fuel,i've not found much relating to full management control just spark which is annoying.

ATB.

[Nick Jones]

Speeduino problems down to three main issues.

Speeduino is a rather variable thing with quite a few ECUs/daughter board combinations available from various suppliers all over the world, some better / more professional than others.  Megasquirt (for example) is a much more consistent thing.

Lack of decent documentation was quite a contrast to my previous Megasquirt experiences where the documentation was just amazing - though these days there is so much, finding the right stuff can be a challenge.

Electrical noise.  Endless issues with electrical noise, especially with the very critical crankshaft position signal, which was problematic right up until the point we switched from using a Hall effect sensor (which should have been less susceptible) to a VR sensor with extra conditioning board.  That has made a vast difference - pity it's taken 3 years to get there.

Dependent on your level of (electrical/electronic) knowledge I'd be inclined to suggest using Microsquirt with a Volkswagen coil pack with built-in ignitors.   A bit dearer than Speeduino probably and fewer features, but it does have the features you actually need and it seems to work reliably.  Know several on here and elsewhere in the Triumph world who have them on Spitfires and Heralds with good results.

BTW, ignition-only is a good halfway house and a good first learning step. Any ECU that will do both will be capable of ignition only.  Just watch out for Megajolt, which does ignition only (in conjunction with Ford hardware) and will not do fuel control.

Nick