Vitesse clutch

[Mikeyvitesse]

Hello All

Are there different lengths of slave cylinder pushrod between early and late Vitesses? There doesn't seem to be much travel in mine and I was wondering if its too short. The clutch has such a low biting point it's not disengaging properly - in gear with clutch depressed and the car is edging forwards! I took the carpet out today and its much better for now.  The car is not on its original engine or gearbox so its possible there's a mix of parts.  However I haven't changed anything for the last 8 years.

I only put the carpets in 2 years ago.  It seemed fine with the carpets for about 4-5000 miles- until a few weeks ago when it started getting crunchy on gear changes.  I just changed the seals on the master and slave cyls and replaced the clevis pin, and now there's loads of movement at the master cyl end, but no improvement at the slave.

Am hoping its not the dreaded crank thrust washers! How would I check? Should the engine be running when looking at the front of the crank as someone pushes the clutch? SHould the engine be hot?  How much movement is bad news?

Any other suggestions?

Thanks for listening.

Mike

[Pete Lewis]

no only one push rod and slave .
look for wear in the peadal box, the clevis pin holes in the end of the pedal and mcyl push rod.
you get wear on the throwout lever pins and grooves in the throw out bearing where the pins press.
all contribute to low pedals
worth checking the easy bits and the slave ,make sure the bleed nipple is upermost.
change the seals all round,  new fluid  etc.  before you start to remove the gearbox.

you can also slot the 4  holes in the bracket  so you can move the assy on the baulkhead  to raise the pedal height .  do not go too far , you must have a small amount of free play in the mcyl push rod when foots  off..



Peter

[Nick Jones]

The actuating fork also occasionally splits where it fits over the pivot ball in the bell housing.....

Nick

[Mikeyvitesse]

Great, thanks. The master cyl and pedal holes are all good as I welded them up following the tips on Canley's website, and there are new seals, pipe and fluid all round.  

The pedal box seems ok - would I be looking for lateral movement in the bush? It wobbles slightly but doesn't seem bad.

Slotting the master cyl would increase the travel of the master cyl pushrod, rather than the slave pushrod, right? I could try, but there doesn't seem to be any slack in this side of the mechanism. Looking at the slave end it looks like the piston is half way down the bore before the release bearing comes into contact with the clutch cover.

What about putting spacers between the slave and bellhousing to move it closer?

[Mikeyvitesse]

PS has anyone ever had problems bleeding the system?

[performancebible]

Insufficient movement within the master cylinder: equals insufficient slave travel.  If the slave rod appears too short, then make or fit a longer one. Or fit the unit to the rear of the bell-housing.  Checkout all the reasons above.   Bleeding the system can be difficult - unless you use an Easybleed ( from Halfords etc )  This is such an under-rated accessory and will fix clutches and brakes, single handed in no time.  It will even bleed an Evo 4wd centre diff.

[Pete Lewis]

there must be a small end float lost travel gap between master cyl and the  pedal  push rod.

hold the end that goes into the cyl. it should be able to rattle it in the end of the cyl.

make sure bleed nipple is above the slave feed pipe.
piston in slave can be anywhere , so long as there is enough cylinder length to take the pistoon travel.
as the clutch wears the piston is depressed more  into the slave  so mid ships is about right.

the geometry on a vit is awfull, like most triumphs,
if the pins in the withdrawl are worn with flats on you can drill them out and repair by welding in a pair of short clevis pins to reclaim the operating position of the fulcrum
if the release sleeve has a groove , remove the anti rotaion pin and drill a 1mm hole to reposition the working point.

moving the Mcyl bracket on the baulkhead 4 screws will raise the start point of the pedal pad .
and can help in some circumstances .  
sorry to repeat again never remove the free play, or the cyl will not recuperate
and always  give a low pedal and hard to bleed ,,,this may be where you trouble lies

Pete

[Mikeyvitesse]

Thanks for the tips, I thought I'd found the problem during the week - too much carpet/insulation behind the clutch pedal. Removed the underlay, put it back together and gear changes were much improved. Then broke down this weekend 100 miles from home when the clutch pedal went hard and wouldn't engage at all. Took out the gearbox cover and I could see the hydraulics were working but the release bearing wasn't getting near the clutch splines, which meant the pushrod wasn't being sent back up into the slave cylinder on releasing the pedal. Instead it stayed at its furthest extent, hence the hard pedal.

The breakdown chap knew his stuff and diagnosed it- the pivot ball/pin had gone right through the actuating fork, as Nick had said.   I think it must have been pushing through for a while causing the worsening gear changes over time. So did the trip down the M4 on the back of the truck, and now need to fix it.

Is it possible to remove the actuating lever without removing the gearbox? Its jammed on the pivot ball, but if I can prise it off, I'd rather not take out the gearbox if possible as then I'll have to fix the leak, probably replace the clutch and next thing I know it'll be the spring and I've still not fixed it...

Breakdown chap thought it could be removed through the bulkhead hole but didn't try it as no way of fixing it at the roadside.  Guessing I'll need a replacement lever - or can they be welded up?

Cheers

[Nick Jones]

I have welded cracked ones in the past. Once they've actually pushed through you probably need to replace it - I think the damage will be too bad to weld.   All Vitesses, GT6s and Dolomite 1850s use the same part.

Can't remember if you can withdraw it without removing the gearbox....... someone can doubtless confirm.  You want to check the state of the pivot head too - if it's gone all rough then it'll soon munch its way through your new arm.....

Cheers

Nick

[Mark Hammond]

Gearbox out job I'm afraid.

Mark

[Pete Lewis]

it will come out if you extended/ cut a bigger  hole in the hsg , no sharp corners ,  but in general  Marks right .

it will disengage the sprung clip and pull out far enough to weld up,, whether you can fettle it up to a smooth sperical seating is the hard part , and i guess the two throwout pins will be well flatted. and need replacing  so   really to  do it once   take the box off.

Pete

[Mikeyvitesse]

Thanks for all the advice. It seems there's not much point in tackling it in situ, and I'm half way there having removed the gearbox cover.  Will tackle the release bearing points raised by Pete too.

[Mikeyvitesse]

Hello all, I got the box off last weekend and the clutch release carrier looks quite worn with 2 gouges where the lever arm forks have been in contact. I saw in a post of Pete's elsewhere he recommends relocating an 'anti spin roll pin' by drilling a 2mm hole in the end of the carrier and moving the pin so that the lever arm uses an unworn part of the carrier (see link below)  

http://www.tssc.org.uk/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=55&func=view&id=58859&catid=219

I've looked at my carrier and there's no pin or hole nor can I see one on the exploded diagrams in the manual or sppliers' websites. Can anyone shed any light on this?  Have tried to upload photos but having technical problems! Should I drill a hole and if so what should I be putting in the hole?  Or should I buy a new carrier?  Or shove the old one back in? I'd rather not do the latter if its a possible cause of my clutch judder.

I've bought a new rear crank oil seal but things look dry around the flywheel.  If there was an engine oil leak would it come through the central hole?  Would you expect to see oil staining on the flywheel?  I'd rather not get the flywheel off unless I have to, as I'll need to hire/buy an impact wrench.

The flywheel looks fine to my inexperienced eye, though I've read it can be difficult to tell if it has worn evenly or not. I've had some clutch judder which I think was caused by a worn bellhousing oil seal allowing gearbox oil past - mine fell out and was split. The clutch plate looks evenly worn if a little blackened - maybe burnt gearbox oil?

Finally, has anyone tried warming the bellhousing seal in hot water to see if that helps it to fit?  Otherwise any suggestions?  It doesn't seem easy!

Thanks for listening.

[Pete Lewis]

the anti spin pin was added  mid life, no idea of when,
all it is is a very small spirol pin , you could use a split pin if you wish to add one.  this was added to stop the carrier rotating and wearing rotational grooves in the front cover, as this  can cause jamming not a nice rattling good slide.

problem is the wear now takes place in the groove all in one place...cant win.   this sort of mod was used by many manufactures.
best remove the front cover with its seal and fit new seal on the bench

the front steel  cover with the seal will lightly tap out of the alloy hsg,
support the hsg, and drift it rewards with a soft wooden drift.
add some  sealant if you remove refit this ,
best put some tape over the clutch spines to avoid any lip damage to the seal.
and some grease to stop the seal lip  turning inside out.

if that helps

Peter

[Mikeyvitesse]

Thanks for that.  Managed to load on the photos now.  Flywheel hopefully shown. As I said I can't see evidence of oil leaking but am not sure if it would come through the central hole.  Does it look like the crank oil seal is ok?

[Mikeyvitesse]

And one side of clutch bearing carrier showing wear groove and dent - am thinking I should bite the bullet and buy a new one - though £55 or so from Canleys, though any suggestions welcomed!

[Mikeyvitesse]

Other side of clutch carrier which has the groove and dent next to each other.

[Pete Lewis]

the dimple in the outer flange is doing the same as the pin design, it stops the carrier rotation, hence the wear in on place, so save the cost of new one by ,
drill and fit a split pin elsewhere  to relocate the operating  pin wear for another 40 yrs.

no oil will come frome the spigot bush any spun out residue it from over lubrication from a previous refit, its a oilite bush it should be soaked in hot oil for 12 hours , ifyou were  fitting a new bush,
general a very light smear of lhm grease is ok , not a copaslip type.  which is anti seize not a lubricant. .

you will not see  the crank seal until you remove the flywheel., if there is no oil running down from behind the F wheel accept that it is in good order
for now.

the wear on the carrier +  wear on the pins this upsets the angle the withdrawl lever , and you loose the mechanical advantage of the lever and this increases the pedal loads , so getting it sorted will improve the whole feel .

utopia would be for someone to knock up a concentric kit so the throwout operates centrally  from against the front face of the gearbox ..have to dream about that for a while ,

Pete

[Mikeyvitesse]

Thanks for the advice Pete, I will try drilling the carrier.  Should I drill through both flanges? Would you use a split pin and if so how would you secure it in place?

I've managed to track down a new old stock lever arm, so hopefully that will give the best chance of it working right.

[Nick Jones]

Yes, drill through both flanges and pass the split pin right through.  Secure by bending the ends back in the usual way.  Trim off excess length - 5 - 6mm bent back is ample.

Nick