New Engine

[Nick Jones]

Issue with using any kind of pump is that it (and it's connections) either needs to be robust enough to live as part of the oiling system full time and incorporate a non-return valve or you need an isolation system robust enough.  Potential complications and leak paths are many and likely to outweigh the benefits IMO.

The Accusump is designed for this of course - and needs no pump as it stores pressure generated by the cars own oiling system.  Not cheap, but will also bridge any gaps caused by oil surge.

http://www.accusump.com/accusump_units.html

I do wonder what the root cause of the oil pressure lag is in the Triumph 6 pot.  Certainly it is much improved by the spin-on conversion (provided it is properly installed) but there seem to be other variables:

One of my old PI engines used to get oil pressure very quickly even though it was shot to bits and had rubbish oil pressure when hot.  The other one was dreadful (even if only standing a short time), but the hot oil pressure was quite good.  That one also lost oil pressure when running on steep slopes (my old drive!) if oil level was not right up to the mark, presumably due to a suction leak, but I was unable to find any reason for that when it was dismantled.
The new one used to take ages to get oil pressure.  This was much improved once I got the O-ring sizes right on the spin-on adapter, but still less good than the old engine.  It had excellent oil pressure when hot.  Filter was pointing always downwards PI.

My old Vitesse engine used to get oil pressure almost instantly on start (and good oil pressure).  The new one is nearly as quick (oil pressure less good though).  These have the filter mounted horizontally, but have never seemed to be especially fussy about filters.

Nick

[GT6 M]

thanks for all ideas Ladds,

moer or less on line i was think,n
The pipe to bigg oil galley plug will have to ev a non return init,
as dont want pump to be pressurised, and also not want to feed oil backwards.

its gotta be a small,n, as was think,n of having it on the side of the chassis rails, just behint the sump.
where the chassis gets wider for the g/box bell hoosing.
with a short pipe to the  bigg plug above the filter.

looked at accy sumps, maybe one of them can fit doon there,
as aint much room above, and dont want to mek the free space too cluttered wid ..odditiys, !!


Nick, , re time to pressure,  It deffo got summat t,do with the oil draining back ,
either thru the bearings, or thru the pump / releif valve,
but what ever it is, its deffo going some where

last night, took the oil filter off to tighten the adaptor bolt up,
the filter was full, BUTT, the housing was empty
well a wee bit int bottom,
all the oil had draind back into sump.

this is why im contemplating the   pre  oiler set up.

BUTTT, on this idea, the olde engine  had no wear on the mains / bigg ends at all,
so maybe im a bit paranoid aboot the oil light.

Butttt, some of ye will no, that when the engines first started, there a v v funny noise till oil press actually gets up to nok the light oot.

Maybe an accky sump would be best of both worlds,
butt, touch woood, Ive never seen the oil press drop under hard cornering braking.
even gaan doon some 40 deg,ish  hills up here,!!!!

M

[Nick Jones]

Filter housing can only drain back through the pump or relief valve (which should be closed), not through the bearings as would have to flow uphill to get to them.  Main gallery onwards can drain through the bearings.

In my experience (4 pot and 6), they don't knock on start-up with the oil light on if the bearing clearances are correct (though they will go on a long time like this).  The old Vitesse engine never knocked - haven't looked inside it yet so can't comment on bearing condition but it's done plenty of miles and I bet there's plenty of copper showing.........

I'd use an Accusump myself but I'm not bothered enough about it to do anything.

Nick

[Nick Jones]

Filter housing can only drain back through the pump or relief valve (which should be closed), not through the bearings as would have to flow uphill to get to them.  Main gallery onwards can drain through the bearings.

In my experience (4 pot and 6), they don't knock on start-up with the oil light on if the bearing clearances are correct (though they will go on a long time like this).  The old Vitesse engine never knocked - haven't looked inside it yet so can't comment on bearing condition but it's done plenty of miles and I bet there's plenty of copper showing.........

I'd use an Accusump myself but I'm not bothered enough about it to do anything.

Nick

[piman]

Hello Marcus,

possibly you are being a little cautious as the load on the bearings on start up is low and there will be oil there.

I just remembered a test done many years ago when Molyslip first made an appearance. A car magazine took two identical cars one was run with Molyslip added to the oil and the other had just normal oil. They then drained both cars' sumps and drove them normally (On a private track if my memory is right?), the Molyslip car lasted longer than the other but what surprised me is that it took about thirty miles for the cars to fail.

Alec

[piman]

Hello Marcus,

possibly you are being a little cautious as the load on the bearings on start up is low and there will be oil there.

I just remembered a test done many years ago when Molyslip first made an appearance. A car magazine took two identical cars one was run with Molyslip added to the oil and the other had just normal oil. They then drained both cars' sumps and drove them normally (On a private track if my memory is right?), the Molyslip car lasted longer than the other but what surprised me is that it took about thirty miles for the cars to fail.

Alec

[GT6 M]

Yip, mebe I am Alec,   as said above, the olde engines bearings were perfect
after 130 odd thou miles ish,

Yes recall some thing similar,  but didnt it all depend on how much wear there was in the engine to start wid,

a well worn engine went along way befoer it seized up

I got a cunning wee thing brewing in me Tinkerous mind,
v v simple, v v cheeep, and no teks much room up

M

[GT6 M]

Yip, mebe I am Alec,   as said above, the olde engines bearings were perfect
after 130 odd thou miles ish,

Yes recall some thing similar,  but didnt it all depend on how much wear there was in the engine to start wid,

a well worn engine went along way befoer it seized up

I got a cunning wee thing brewing in me Tinkerous mind,
v v simple, v v cheeep, and no teks much room up

M

[Sheepy]

Quoted from GT6 M

I got a cunning wee thing brewing in me Tinkerous mind,
v v simple, v v cheeep, and no teks much room up

M

?????????????  

[Sheepy]

796 wrote:

I got a cunning wee thing brewing in me Tinkerous mind,
v v simple, v v cheeep, and no teks much room up

M

?????????????   :-/

[GT6 M]

Its a sort of home brew  type, wid oot the complicated innards of the others

try to imagin a pipe frae oil gally, with a electric close /open valve in the line. going into a tank on the bulkheed
this tank will have a stop vave fitted, so the top is open, so the thing can fill up.

but this bit will be fed into rocker box as a fail safe, incase valve malfunctions.
when valve is shut at top, nee oil can get in,
so gota full tank of oil,
noo then  nok engine off, and oil stops in tank, untill I open the valve, an let it flow into oil gally, thus fill,n it up, thus reducing oil pres build up time
seems a simples job to doo.
a pint pot should suffice

well that me think,n

M

[GT6 M]

Its a sort of home brew  type, wid oot the complicated innards of the others

try to imagin a pipe frae oil gally, with a electric close /open valve in the line. going into a tank on the bulkheed
this tank will have a stop vave fitted, so the top is open, so the thing can fill up.

but this bit will be fed into rocker box as a fail safe, incase valve malfunctions.
when valve is shut at top, nee oil can get in,
so gota full tank of oil,
noo then  nok engine off, and oil stops in tank, untill I open the valve, an let it flow into oil gally, thus fill,n it up, thus reducing oil pres build up time
seems a simples job to doo.
a pint pot should suffice

well that me think,n

M

[nang]

Took the S for a decent 200 km run today. Longest trip it's had on its new motor. We have plenty of hills around here.
Not done to the extent of Marcus's though. Just a $700 (350 pound)   shaft grind, rings and bearings job.
1st drive on Penrite 20/60 oil, having drained the old stuff out and changed filter after 500 km. Now got 850km on her. goes really well, oil pressure hot 70 psi, at 2500 rpm 30 at idle. Temp never got over half way.
Oil pump was within tolerance so just faced the mating ends with wet and dry paper on a glass sheet.
Tony.

[nang]

Took the S for a decent 200 km run today. Longest trip it's had on its new motor. We have plenty of hills around here.
Not done to the extent of Marcus's though. Just a $700 (350 pound)   shaft grind, rings and bearings job.
1st drive on Penrite 20/60 oil, having drained the old stuff out and changed filter after 500 km. Now got 850km on her. goes really well, oil pressure hot 70 psi, at 2500 rpm 30 at idle. Temp never got over half way.
Oil pump was within tolerance so just faced the mating ends with wet and dry paper on a glass sheet.
Tony.

[GT6 M]

Nice,n Tony.

Decided just hoo im gonna do the oil thingy,
so med a mock up to see if it would work, or just bark,n up a dead end.

Idea was to get a box /pipe,or what ever, and have it feed into it frae the oil galley
was gonna put a trap vavle onto the top, and feed that into rocker box.

BUTT, going this route, I would loose all pressure that was coming from the pump.
IE, if tank was full at say 50 PSI, then if trap valve opend to let it fill right up,
then I would nae have an pressure, and the oil init when  valve opend to let oil back
into engine, would just trickle oot.

So med this up to try me other way o think,n

A bottle with a sealed end, fitted to a inline tap, which was then fitted to me hose pipe.



turn tap on, and bottle fills up, but no right to the top, as this is noo compressed air.



this would be at hose pipe pressure, think its aboot 15 PSI, correctas if it wrong.
turned tap off, took hose off, and bottle was hold,n pressure,
then opened tap, and the contents  went aboot 20 foot away, and bottle emptied quite fast.

So, where im gonna bung tank, and cos the oil will be higher press than hose pipe,  I think  i,ll need a 2 pint bottle / box /pipe, with just a feed frae oil galley alone.
and a valve to shut the thingy off when engines switched off.
think i,ll just use a manual valve done thru a cable, this way, can open it fully to dump oil, but just open a wee bit to fill
so wont be tek,n too much oil frae engine pressure feed.

depending on what pressure yer at when switchin off, will depend on the press in tank,
so idle will just give say 25, and a rev up will give 50+

this will be ideal for just filling the oil ways, and also give a wee bit of charge to the system,
v v easy to doo, and costs next to nowt.
v v similar to the Accy sumps, which are costa fortune for what they are.

talk,n of accy sumps, here a v v good vid explaining it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vyaGoj60A6s

and this give a even better idea of just hoo it will help start up oil pressure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=uhRfUegqwxg

comments

M

[GT6 M]

Nice,n Tony.

Decided just hoo im gonna do the oil thingy,
so med a mock up to see if it would work, or just bark,n up a dead end.

Idea was to get a box /pipe,or what ever, and have it feed into it frae the oil galley
was gonna put a trap vavle onto the top, and feed that into rocker box.

BUTT, going this route, I would loose all pressure that was coming from the pump.
IE, if tank was full at say 50 PSI, then if trap valve opend to let it fill right up,
then I would nae have an pressure, and the oil init when  valve opend to let oil back
into engine, would just trickle oot.

So med this up to try me other way o think,n

A bottle with a sealed end, fitted to a inline tap, which was then fitted to me hose pipe.



turn tap on, and bottle fills up, but no right to the top, as this is noo compressed air.



this would be at hose pipe pressure, think its aboot 15 PSI, correctas if it wrong.
turned tap off, took hose off, and bottle was hold,n pressure,
then opened tap, and the contents  went aboot 20 foot away, and bottle emptied quite fast.

So, where im gonna bung tank, and cos the oil will be higher press than hose pipe,  I think  i,ll need a 2 pint bottle / box /pipe, with just a feed frae oil galley alone.
and a valve to shut the thingy off when engines switched off.
think i,ll just use a manual valve done thru a cable, this way, can open it fully to dump oil, but just open a wee bit to fill
so wont be tek,n too much oil frae engine pressure feed.

depending on what pressure yer at when switchin off, will depend on the press in tank,
so idle will just give say 25, and a rev up will give 50+

this will be ideal for just filling the oil ways, and also give a wee bit of charge to the system,
v v easy to doo, and costs next to nowt.
v v similar to the Accy sumps, which are costa fortune for what they are.

talk,n of accy sumps, here a v v good vid explaining it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vyaGoj60A6s

and this give a even better idea of just hoo it will help start up oil pressure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=uhRfUegqwxg

comments

M

[Nick Jones]

Looks like you are re-inventing the Accusump......

Nick

[Nick Jones]

Looks like you are re-inventing the Accusump......

Nick

[Spider]

I have a CW blueprinted oil pump in one of my motors, oil light extinguishes very quickly and have never noticed any engine knock at start up.

[Spider]

I have a CW blueprinted oil pump in one of my motors, oil light extinguishes very quickly and have never noticed any engine knock at start up.

[GT6 M]

Quoted from Nick Jones

Looks like you are re-inventing the Accusump......

Nick

In a way yes,  but I aint got the complication of an inner piston.
and gaa,n by the way the water kem oot with just 15 PSI init,
then this will be ample for my needs.

M

[GT6 M]

Nick_Jones wrote:

Looks like you are re-inventing the Accusump......

Nick

In a way yes,  but I aint got the complication of an inner piston.
and gaa,n by the way the water kem oot with just 15 PSI init,
then this will be ample for my needs.

M

[GT6 M]

Quoted from Spider

I have a CW blueprinted oil pump in one of my motors, oil light extinguishes very quickly and have never noticed any engine knock at start up.

I too Mike, but no witors.
Butt, the oil delay seems a wee bitt too long for my liking after cars been sitting a week or so.

as to yer OP v quick and no rattle/ nok, depends on just hoo yer defining a rattle.
mines moer a rumble/grumble, with a gurgling sound.
ye gotta hear it to no what im on about.
it  was so on me dads cars and my other 4 engines ive had in, but this one seems to be a wee bit longer to extinquish oil light.

Noo this is with a double drain filter, so what it be like wida ordinary filter,
it could really  be alott wuss than with double  anti drain type

Im starting to think that the prob is maybe not a prob, but just a lack of pressure for a while, contradicting stuff but bear widas.

on OE engines, as I found oot, there a restriction aroond the dizzy bit, the oil holes  are only about 7 MM
So when an OE engine starts, then this restriction causes the oil pressure to rise in the bit where the oil pressure switch is. thus mek,n ye think that yer oil press is up all over,

Butt, i recon  { thru experiance at listening to noises in thee,s engines } that the bearings ..past the dizzy.. will no be at the same pressure, as even on other engines, I can still hear this rumble noise on start up / revs,   even thou the oil lite is oot.
hence the noises.

the mods I did will deffo have given moer oil to the end bearings, but to me seems to have had a effect on the oil delay time.

Im prob gettin  moer oil to the furthest bearings, but not showing it on the gauge
as an actuall pressure rise , till the oil gauge is reading a figure.
Oil lite goes off, BUTT, oil gauge aint showing any pressure fora few secs moer.

this is where me oil tank under  engine oil pressure is gonna come in.
So even after a week lig,n idle, i,ll still ev a decent pressure, even befoer start up.
which, for the low cost involved is a good item to have on thee,s engines.

M

[GT6 M]

3762 wrote:

I have a CW blueprinted oil pump in one of my motors, oil light extinguishes very quickly and have never noticed any engine knock at start up.

I too Mike, but no witors.
Butt, the oil delay seems a wee bitt too long for my liking after cars been sitting a week or so.

as to yer OP v quick and no rattle/ nok, depends on just hoo yer defining a rattle.
mines moer a rumble/grumble, with a gurgling sound.
ye gotta hear it to no what im on about.
it  was so on me dads cars and my other 4 engines ive had in, but this one seems to be a wee bit longer to extinquish oil light.

Noo this is with a double drain filter, so what it be like wida ordinary filter,
it could really  be alott wuss than with double  anti drain type

Im starting to think that the prob is maybe not a prob, but just a lack of pressure for a while, contradicting stuff but bear widas.

on OE engines, as I found oot, there a restriction aroond the dizzy bit, the oil holes  are only about 7 MM
So when an OE engine starts, then this restriction causes the oil pressure to rise in the bit where the oil pressure switch is. thus mek,n ye think that yer oil press is up all over,

Butt, i recon  { thru experiance at listening to noises in thee,s engines } that the bearings ..past the dizzy.. will no be at the same pressure, as even on other engines, I can still hear this rumble noise on start up / revs,   even thou the oil lite is oot.
hence the noises.

the mods I did will deffo have given moer oil to the end bearings, but to me seems to have had a effect on the oil delay time.

Im prob gettin  moer oil to the furthest bearings, but not showing it on the gauge
as an actuall pressure rise , till the oil gauge is reading a figure.
Oil lite goes off, BUTT, oil gauge aint showing any pressure fora few secs moer.

this is where me oil tank under  engine oil pressure is gonna come in.
So even after a week lig,n idle, i,ll still ev a decent pressure, even befoer start up.
which, for the low cost involved is a good item to have on thee,s engines.

M

[GT6 M]

Ello Ian,what was the valve ye were looking at.
Im lookin at thee,s seems as they are nromally closed, and open with a live.
this is fine, as I can let it open when I turn ign on.

butt, when filling up, can mek current go thru a on/off switch, to limit oil drain on pump

think this is OK!!, or any one else say a better,n
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-4-.....;hash=item5667c8f5f5

went to scrappy this after, and got some 3 inch ally pipe, so need to weld 2 ends on it.
got a  bigg pot type ally cylinder, needs a inlet /outlet plug int end,
and a used fire extinguisher, so plenty to fiddlate aboot with,  2£ all in,

M