New Engine

[GT6 M]

Been at it agen, lots of fiddleating wee jobs ,

1 was to check the valve stem tip footprint,
was a wee bit off, so can actually adjust the rocker pedastals aboot a little, as I put in adjusting bolts into em,
the adjustment is about  1/2 to3/4 mm, but it meks the mark spot on.

slightly off, but not much, as rocker goes over this mark on  2/3 rds lift


method of sett,n full lift stops,or as what cam will lift too.
And to the reet, can be seen the blots thru pedastals for fine adjustment, well worth it.



spot on markings



tip just off to dizzy side at no lift



gon over center on 3/4 lift




Ex mani collector, was going to get at this ages ago, but left alone till noo.
was not v impressed by the sloppy way thee,s are made,
like who on earth puts a pipe into a pipe the wrong way roond,  I ask ye,



so set to to sort it oot
bell mouthed the end after it were cut off, this so its bigger than the other bit



and fitted up like so,  noo the joint is where it should have been frae,t start.








M

[Nick Jones]

Ah, the wondrous Pheonix collector......... sorted mine a good few years back - was at least a 15mm stub sticking through the cone - not good for gas flow!

Nick

[GT6 M]

Had another few hours at it,
I turned the inner bit of the oil pump bush doon, just where the oil holes are.
and also ground oot the bush area in the block, got aboot 1 1.5 mm a side extra.
so this and the bush aboot 3.5 mm extra oil flowability.

gound oot bush area



bush, dont look much, but already took a bitt of the wwhole lot,
just decided to go deeper where the oil wols are,  still got 3 mm a side left




method of testing hoo much extra I got to let oil flow
see the wee marks on rod, its aboot over 6 mm





Markus MK1 special service tool for finding hidden depths an measurements.



and this looking doon the bush area, hard to see, but there is a lot bigger area for oil to flow aroond noo.
it wer,nt much to start off with,  So with this mod, and the  bigger holes in the feed/exit frae bush area,  should have a decent flow to No 1 end noo.



M

[don cook1]

Phoenix collector...I modified mine.

[GT6 M]

Thats some thing I never had a prob with, leaking frae the collector.
plenty of ex paste, that helps,

BUTT, it then get awkward to git off,
thats why theres a great bigg bit welded underneath it, can just see the head of it on one pic.
so judicious use of a ammer can wak it off.


Also had a prod doon the  primarys with some welding wire.
yip youve guest it,   the wire got stuck down there where the seconday meets into the collector,
so there must be a great bigg stub sticking into all three.

noo debating whether to cut them off too,

Whats the point of mek,n a so called performance mani, when the pipes are going in the wrong way
not so bad going in frae bottom, as long as they  dont hinder flow.

which brings me onto another quirk,
the primarys are diff lengths,  
BUTT, if the pipes that go into the  collector are actually longer by an inch or so,
then frae the oot side they look diff lengths, but in reality, they are nearly equal.
as the pipe is longer inside the collector, follow,!!!

thoughts on me thinking.

M

[GT6 M]

Another late night, but an industrious,n

got the olde blok oot at last, and  needed the sump for the new,n
decided to look at the bearings, there aint a mark on em
thee,s were Glacier , and its had some stick, they got at least 125,000 on em





and also needed the flywheel, backplate
there seems to be an attack of metal worm on em,!!
backplate weighs in at 7.5 LB, the ally one i got, is 5.8LB



and flywheel is 4 LBs  lighter than a standard GT6
17 against 13, ruff, as cant see bits of pounds on me scales.

And also decided to bung in another spigot to hod the flaywheel in spot
new,n on the left, and attached to flywheel





If any of you got yer engine oot , then this modd i did yonks ago is  a real winner
when it come to get,n the engine in/oot
there aint much room cos of the cross bar, and engine gotta be at a v jaunty angle to get it in,
this mod meks life so so easy

notice the new shape,to where original  was





M

[JohnD]

Matt,
Love your garage carpet (it IS in the garage, surely?).  Ace! (of clubs).

But that perforated backplate worries me.   Sure, you can drill out some weight, but it appears to have been randomly shot at.   You didn't blast it with a shotgun then drill where the pellets landed did you? (Big smiley!)
One breaks through into the centre hole, which must act as a stress raiser, and several others are very close to the actual mount holes.

I would love to be able to do a proper stress analysis, but even though I can't, that distribution just looks wrong, even unsafe.
I can't find a suitable analysis of such a plate, but I did find this, a lightened plate for a rotary aero-engine (below).

You can see how it has been relieved (thinned), sparing the the areas around the mount holes, and leaving 'struts' between them and the centre area.
That would reflect the actual stresses, and leave the metal intact where they will be greatest, around existing holes.
John

[Nick Jones]

I also have concerns about that back plate.

While investigating reasons for my clutch problems a little while back, one of the things I looked at was whether the backplate was flat.  It wasn't - about a 3mm out of true with an offset dish deepest around the bottom of the arc.  I tried a couple more - one very similar, one only about 1.5mm dished, again, most distorted at the bottom.  I also had a couple of saloon backplates around - same story to a greater or lesser extent.

I think the reason for this is that both engine and gearbox mounts are at the ends furthest from the engine/BH joint so there is a strong tendency for this joint to try and open up, resisted mainly by the backplate.  It seems like a chunky, heavy piece and it is, but my results suggest that it ain't quite chunky enough to resist the bending forces on it, especially when subjected to shock loadings (heavy landings after hump-backed bridge anyone?).

I would not be drilling holes in a standard plate or using an alloy one.  Many engine gearbox combos have a bracing piece on the engine side that pick up on the sump face or bosses on the block.  Others have wide webs on the block casting as sump joint level.  These are all to help resist the bending moment on this joint.  Just about every other manufacturer does a better job on this joint with respect to design stiffness and centralising engine on gearbox.  Adequate for the 4 cylinder engines, just barely so for the 6s.  I think a brace down there would be worthwhile but not very easy to design neatly.

Nick

[GT6 M]

Jon / Nick,  that things been on since 87, its had some stick,
g.box been in/oot a few times.  and when washed it off yesterday, there wer,nt a mark,or fracture onit.
and its also dead flat not a wee bit oot even.

And never had a prob with me clutch either.

If im no misteken, Andy T has his actually cut away inside the  engine bolt bits.
Pics Andy to confirm.!

What I cant understand is just hoo does a back plate get bent / twisted when ont engine.
IF all the bolts are put in with washers and tightened up, then the ingin  / g box become as one.
the bell housing is quite a stout affair to stop it bending.

Me tinks folk woe have a bent backplate have no been putting the engine in right,
IE, letting it hang on g box input shaft, ,generally shows up as a bent clutch plate inner bit too.
or too lazy to put all bolts in,

We got loadsa bolts on our cars, even the dark matter  4 pot ,ns.
where as there are loadsa cars with just 4 bolts
MX has just 4, 6 with starter. , its OK

M

[JohnD]

Yes, cutting out the centre should be safe enough.
See pic.  But done to allow me to install the rear crank oil seal while the block is still on the engine stand
That plate will never be used for anything else.

John

[GT6 M]

Had another go today, went to bung the rods in, and the engine would nae turn owa.
the Con rods were touching the sides.
So oot kem the die grinder with cutting tool, and grinded some slots in the lower bores
just where the bits of the rod touch.  needed about 2 mm took off each side.









And this is the reason why, thee,s things are thick,  but v v leet



backplate on, and flywheel fitted, along with extra dowels,  Got some ARP bolts in there too.,
BUTT, dont go and buy,em for a Triumph, they costa fortune,  Get,em for a Chevy or a Olds,or most Yank Muscle cars.
they are alott lott cheeper that way




And am a little baffledikussed with thee,s oil rings,
there is a deffo dish / cup to em,  noo what I cant fathom oot is, which way does the dish go,

up or doon,

IE, if the ring is like picture, dished upwards,  then does this go on top ring and the bottom ring goes the other way.


I seem to recall some cords rings I had for a Ford,  and it stated that there was a way to fit them,
Cant find any info ont net about which way dished rings go.
BUTT, on the cords, if they put the rong way in, then it would use oil.

Any one shed any light.!!



M

[piman]

Hello Marcus,

I've never seen that before, but it may be a modern thing? I was told, many moons ago that the rings are ground with a slight taper and that is why they must go one way with the larger diameter downwards. Based on that I would say the dish goes upwards, but can you check with the piston manufacturer or supplier?

Alec

[GT6 M]

Hello Alec, no its no a modern thing, the cords ones i put in were aboot 78 if i recal correctly.

thee,s aint got as bigg a dish  from what i remember, but they are dished,
some alittle moer than others,
this is what im trying to find oot

top ring    / # /    both face this way
               / # \    both go this way
               \ # /    both go this way
               \ # \    or this way

# =expander

rings are Grants,

Was a bit of a head thinker on the pistons too, no markings saying front.
but an arrow on the side

Ive deduced that the arrow goes to the mani side, and facing forads to NO1 end.

M

[piman]

Hello Marcus,

just thinking how much of a dish you will have when they are in the piston, as there is little clearance in the lands it should flatten them out? My inclination would be to fit them all dish up but it would be better to get a definite yes or no from the maker?

Have a look here, although it may make things more confusing? :-  http://www.grantpistonrings.com/products/rings/ring_styles.htm

I think I would give their technical department a call?

Alec

[andy thompson]

Yep Markus - my backplate is similar to Johns - seems to cope - my overdrive adaptor once made a bid for freedom from the rest of the engine / gearbox assembly - bit of loctite and getting rid of spring washers sorted that

[dazzer]

I asked the local motor factors about Cord rings and ridge dodgers only a couple of weeks ago. They'd never heard of them either. Good to see you've got spme Marcus.

Yes I seem to remember it was a 73 vintage FE Victor I fitted them to last when I was an apprentice in the early 80s. Great bit of kit.

The Victor sadly is long gone.

[GT6 M]

Another day at it,  not gon according to plan.

sorted all the pistons, rods and ringed em all,
went to fit them, and I gotta admit, I cant get em in.

the prob is the oil rings,  they so fine, they dropping oot the clamp befoer they are home.
either need moer hands an arms, or get some help, or get a diff type of ring fitter,

seriously thinkin of mek,n a tapered sleeve, I no where theres plenty of pots aboot the right size.

So gave up,  and turned me attentionee to the oil pump
they a ruff casting, its a wonder they actually flow at all

but got to with the Dremelator and some carbide burrs
need to no what to tek off and where, so onto olde engine wid some dykum blue

this is oil hole int block, the round wol is the PRV
the cut oot to the right is the feed to the engine





and ye get this, so need to tek all the non blue off



and also open it oot a bit inside



this is what the OE was like, 😲



And also modded the inlet  frae spout





then checked to see if it were sitt,n ok, it wer,nt
so a wee bit of rubbing needed



Voila


Note how much bigger the feed in is noo, and also rounded off,



All in, I took a fair ole amount oot of there,

M

[nang]

Marcus,
Many years ago in New Zealand we had a thing about building Off Roaders using a purpose build pipe frame and V W air cooled mechanical parts. Of course we wanted more power so we built bigger inlet and exhaust manifolds to get better breathing. We also fitted larger oil coolers and remote spin on oil filters.
We also did your trick of opening up oil galleries etc. BUT we also fitted high volume oil pumps.
Just wondering if the standard Triumph oil pump will have the capacity in volume and pressure to feed everything in your motor.
Tony.

[GT6 M]

Tony, I think the pump will keep pace.
On the olde engine I did similar mods, and actually had to reduce the spring tension
as oil pressure was way up when hot, so should be OK

M

[GT6 M]

Had a productive night,  been dooing a bit of Buretting,
quite pleased with the results,

there alott of work gon into this heed,  just hope it delivers the goods.
ex valve has been unk another bit doon, so its nearly flush with the chamber top.
idea is to stop cross flow on overlap,  seemed to work ok on it befoer,
just the faintest smidgeon of contamination on the inlet valve side , nearest ex valve,
so this 10 thou extra may just have helped even moer,



Timed the cam in at 108 degs, idea is its 2 degs oot, but chain will wear to compensate in a few thousand miles,
checked the olde one befoer i took it off, and it was showing 115, so a worn chain had shifted the timing 5 degs,  but that were wid olde sprokets ,thee,s are bran spankers.



clutchplate an cover on too. its running 1 thou out at the rim,
think I can live with that.



And this wee things been a god send,  still getting used to it for modding valves, but its coming.





but it teks just seconds to re face a valve,
the inlets did,nt need dooing at all, not a mark on em.


So wiida bit of luck, the ingin will be in the morrow night,
then just re fit every thing up.

M

[don cook1]

Have you modded the combustion chambers?

[GT6 M]

Yes,  tried to get a bit of less valve shrouding roond the edges of the chamber walls.
went just a little further than befoer.

M

[GT6 M]

Tonight, decided to tackle the  mani collectors.
going by what the  main collector was like,
and going by wat me  home made ..feelin stik.. told me was inside the ones ont mani itsell.
was not looking to find this,



this was the best of the 3, as it were mainly a roundy type collector bottom,
butt, the other 2 were alotttt lotttt worse,

the collector was formed in, but the pipes just shuvved into it,
and this resulted in a 1/2 inch gap on some spots.

totally crap workmanship

maybe this is why I said a few times, I could nae feel the diff between this 6-3-1 and the olde 6-2-1

M

[Paul Garvey]

Hi - are you going up a pipe diameter at the same time as remaking for the extra oomph you'll be putting out?

[GT6 M]

No, the primarys / secondrys seem to be OK

may yetmake the connection frae main collector to first box bigger though,
,, make em bigger, loose low end grunt,  will wait and see how it goes.

M