Triumph Vitesse 2 Litre – Exhaust Manifold

[Jason C]

Hi folks,

I currently have some home made exhaust extractors on my Triumph Vitesse, 2 Litre. I am looking to track down an original Stanpart cast manifold, namely because I would like to replace my exhaust system with a new stainless steel one. The current steel extractors are in good condition, I’ve painted them in heat temperature silver which match quite well with the inlet manifold. But the rear muffler is rotten, so now maybe is the time to change to the original set-up. What seems better with the original cast manifold design (than my extractors) is the inlet manifold can be supported by a stud to the exhaust manifold... (which seems to be not available?) supporting the weight further out, rather than relying on the bolts to the cylinder head. Although, with the amount of people with custom extractors, maybe a non issue.

If someone could be so kind to help with a question in helping me try and track down a manifold locally:

- Is the Triumph 2000 Mk 1 exhaust manifold identical to the Triumph Vitesse 2 Litre? 

- It appears to my eye, the Triumph Vitesse 1600 exhaust manifold is similar but has two mounting bolts on the outer face, with only the lugs remaining to the cast on the Triumph Vitesse 2 Litre manifold.

- Are there any disadvantages to the cast iron manifold? My car is not performance orientated, if anything I like things quite original. 

Thank you

[RobPearce]

59 minutes ago, Jason C said:

If someone could be so kind to help with a question in helping me try and track down a manifold locally:

- Is the Triumph 2000 Mk 1 exhaust manifold identical to the Triumph Vitesse 2 Litre?

Depends on the Vitesse. The Mk1 and Mk2 engines have very different heads and manifolds. A 2000 Mk1 manifold probably fits a Mk1 Vitesse but won't fit a Mk2.

1 hour ago, Jason C said:

- It appears to my eye, the Triumph Vitesse 1600 exhaust manifold is similar but has two mounting bolts on the outer face, with only the lugs remaining to the cast on the Triumph Vitesse 2 Litre manifold.

If you mean the fixing holes at the extreme ends of the manifold, they should still be there on a Mk1 2L (but not a Mk2). I don't think there's much difference between a 1600 and a Mk1 manifold, although the bore may be larger on the 2L.

1 hour ago, Jason C said:

- Are there any disadvantages to the cast iron manifold? My car is not performance orientated, if anything I like things quite original.

They occasionally crack, and the downpipe flange studs rust badly. They don't breathe as freely as a tubular but they do sound more refined. My Mk1 has what I suspect is its original 55-year-old manifold and there are no problems with it other than needing a workaround for the downpipe studs.

[Jason C]

1 hour ago, RobPearce said:

If you mean the fixing holes at the extreme ends of the manifold, they should still be there on a Mk1 2L (but not a Mk2). I don't think there's much difference between a 1600 and a Mk1 manifold, although the bore may be larger on the 2L.

Thanks @RobPearce appreciate your help. Sorry, I wasn’t very clear – I was trying to say the lugs which look to hold a mounting bracket on the 1600 Vitesse manifold. Attached a photo below of a 1600 manifold on eBay. On the 2 Litre version, judging by Triumph illustrations, blank lugs remain in the casting, but the bracket is deleted.

 

1 hour ago, RobPearce said:

They occasionally crack, and the downpipe flange studs rust badly. They don't breathe as freely as a tubular but they do sound more refined. My Mk1 has what I suspect is its original 55-year-old manifold and there are no problems with it other than needing a workaround for the downpipe studs.

Interesting, does the car sound quieter compared to tubular extractors? I have read that with the cast less heat goes into the engine bay, any truth in this?

Where the studs originally threaded into the cast, and I assume rust in place overtime, and need to be drilled out?

Was the cast manifold originally non-painted, what colour was it?

Thank you

 

[RobPearce]

Ah, right, those lugs. Yes, the 2L manifold retains the cast pillars but doesn't have them drilled. I think the same may even be true of late 1600s, because that bracket looks to be a support for the Solex air cleaner.

I haven't driven a Mk1 with a tubular manifold but comparing my Spitfire (tubular) against how it was before, the cast manifold is quieter. The Mk1 Vitesse is a very understated engine tone, as befits a car with class and breeding. As to whether the engine bay is cooler with a cast one, I'm not sure, but it's certainly plausible.

The downpipe flange studs do, indeed, rust in place and often need drilling out. On mine, the drilling wasn't done too well, so I have (slightly smaller) bolts and nuts.

I don't think the cast manifolds were painted. They were probably black when originally fitted (castings often get a black surface layer).

[glang]

Tubular manifolds are quite often wrapped in thermal insulation to reduce heat release in the engine bay and maybe noise...

I think cast iron ones can be coated in vitreous enamel to your choice of colour but its expennnnnsive. 

[Jason C]

1 hour ago, RobPearce said:

I haven't driven a Mk1 with a tubular manifold but comparing my Spitfire (tubular) against how it was before, the cast manifold is quieter. The Mk1 Vitesse is a very understated engine tone, as befits a car with class and breeding. As to whether the engine bay is cooler with a cast one, I'm not sure, but it's certainly plausible.

Thanks @RobPearce I like the sound of the engine being quieter, not that it is noisy. On a different path, I noticed Triumph originally had sound deadening material on the timing cover, so they must have been interested in keeping sound levels down.

 

By chance do you know which stainless steel exhaust closely matches the original design? Looking for a standard exhaust, non sports, baffled muffler... 

 

38 minutes ago, glang said:

I think cast iron ones can be coated in vitreous enamel to your choice of colour but its expennnnnsive. 

Most appreciated @glang it would be cool to coat in a similar colour to the original appearance. The few I have seen off a car have been rusty, I wonder if theres a method to return back to how they may have left the factory – but perhaps they change colour over time anyway.

[glang]

I think they probably originally came in raw metal as most paint is just going to burn off which wouldnt please new owners. However I sprayed mine with a light coat of just ordinary aluminium silver aerosol paint after a recommendation by a pro and it lasted surprisingly well...

[RobPearce]

2 hours ago, Jason C said:

By chance do you know which stainless steel exhaust closely matches the original design?

If it's a Mk1 then it should be a two box system - long centre silencer between the chassis rails then a second, fatter one under the boot, hung off the RH rigger. Back in the day I got one from Bell's (via TSSC) which was correct. I'm not sure whether Canley sell the right one, as most of them seem to drop the centre silencer (as the factory did for Mk2, I think).

[drofgum]

Jason,

Along with supporting the inlet manifold the attachment points also transfer heat to the inlet to aid warm-up.

Although a different design I have run my Spitfire for 37 years without those supports connected and have had no problems with the manifolds or the gaskets.

Regards,

Paul

[Jason C]

17 hours ago, RobPearce said:

If it's a Mk1 then it should be a two box system - long centre silencer between the chassis rails then a second, fatter one under the boot, hung off the RH rigger. Back in the day I got one from Bell's (via TSSC) which was correct. I'm not sure whether Canley sell the right one, as most of them seem to drop the centre silencer (as the factory did for Mk2, I think).

@RobPearce Interesting that the Mk1 had the additional silencer at the front, and removed for a straight through pipe on the Mk2 – do you think to improve performance? 

 

15 hours ago, drofgum said:

Along with supporting the inlet manifold the attachment points also transfer heat to the inlet to aid warm-up.

Thanks @drofgum this is a really interesting design note! I noticed the exhaust manifold has almost like a little shelf, perhaps as you mention to aid in heat transfer.

[glang]

The Mk2 engine got a different cylinder head with bigger valves so although the carbs were still the same size breathing was improved and power output went up. I think to aid this the exhaust design was changed at the same time and certainly when I came to buy a new stainless exhaust system for my Mk1 I got a Mk2 version because in my opinion the bigger diameter tail pipe looked better and it was cheaper. However I did have to modify its flange to suit the smaller manifold connection...

[RobPearce]

1 hour ago, Jason C said:

removed for a straight through pipe on the Mk2 – do you think to improve performance?

No, not for performance. As glang said, there were other (significant) changes to increase power but that front silencer is a straight through (not baffled) type so makes very little difference to gas flow. I strongly suspect the change was driven almost entirely by cost, but supported by a change of emphasis from "gentleman's carriage" to "hot saloon". The early adverts for the 1600 emphasised refinement - you won't wake your neighbours up as you drive off - where the Mk2 was advertised on speed - the two-seater beater.

[Jason C]

3 hours ago, glang said:

I think to aid this the exhaust design was changed at the same time and certainly when I came to buy a new stainless exhaust system for my Mk1 I got a Mk2 version because in my opinion the bigger diameter tail pipe looked better and it was cheaper.

Most interesting @glang any idea of the difference of diameter pipe between the two? I’ve found the Mk1 version of the exhaust harder to track down to purchase, maybe because its less popular. 

 

2 hours ago, RobPearce said:

I strongly suspect the change was driven almost entirely by cost, but supported by a change of emphasis from "gentleman's carriage" to "hot saloon".

@RobPearce Love this phrase! And perhaps the Mk2 was one of the very first "hot saloons"? Before the format become popular. 

 

 

[glang]

The tail pipe on mine (I forget the make now) was a choice of embarrassing mk1 peashooter to a respectable 2" diameter...

[glang]

Have to say though it is a bit noisy (wasnt the sport version) so Im thinking of fitting a cherry bomb midway along the main pipe as I want a gentlemans carriage rather than a hot saloon😁

[Jason C]

10 hours ago, glang said:

Have to say though it is a bit noisy (wasnt the sport version) so Im thinking of fitting a cherry bomb midway along the main pipe as I want a gentlemans carriage rather than a hot saloon😁

Has a sweet sound to it, “gentleman's carriage” until you push your foot on the pedal. 🙂

[Jason C]

Thanks all for your help with my manifold questions!

Another couple of things I’m pondering;

- My current extractors are connected to the exhaust pipe with a 'slip joint' and a U bolt clamp. Is it preferable to use sealant on exhaust slip joints, (in this case steel pipes) or best to simply connect without any sealant? The old sealant just broke away like brittle dust. 

- Best to use the exhaust gasket only, without any sealant? The cylinder head exhaust surface area is nice and flat. When removing the gasket was broken by one port, not sure if due to the homemade extractors not being true.

- It appears the original exhaust had a curved mount bolted to the bottom of the engine to support the exhaust pipe here, are these still available? 

Thank you

 

[JohnD]

I have extractors (6-3-1) and use sealant on the joints.   Important to smear it on the male part, leaving a narrow area adjacent to the open end free of sealant.    Don't smear it inside the female part, else a bulge of goo will develop on the rim of the male part, and solidify, spoiling the lovely flow down the pipe!

I also use goo on the gaskets, in my case only between manifold and head, but again, a mere smear around the outer edges.  I don't want goo bulging into the ports.

Can't answer your third.  Pics?

John

[glang]

The manual shows the mk1 Vit with a right angle plate used to connect a clamp on the exhaust pipe to the right hand bottom bolt of the clutch bell housing. As you say not generally available but easy to make and should help reduce strain on the main joint...

I find the exhaust manifold to head nuts and bolts tend to come loose over time so periodically tighten them to maintain the seal.

[Jason C]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

I have extractors (6-3-1) and use sealant on the joints.   Important to smear it on the male part, leaving a narrow area adjacent to the open end free of sealant.    Don't smear it inside the female part, else a bulge of goo will develop on the rim of the male part, and solidify, spoiling the lovely flow down the pipe!

Sounds great @JohnD are any sealant types/brands preferable? Guessing only a small amount on the gasket? Are there any flexible sealants that scrap off easy later on...

1 hour ago, glang said:

As you say not generally available but easy to make and should help reduce strain on the main joint...

 

My thoughts exactly @glang ! This bracket should reduce some of the strain. Attached a picture from the manual - referring to bracket 'B'. 

Thanks chaps

[glang]

Yes the mk2 attaches further back to the last joint on the gearbox which would give even more stability. The choice is yours....

[Jason C]

14 minutes ago, glang said:

Yes the mk2 attaches further back to the last joint on the gearbox which would give even more stability. The choice is yours....

Thanks @glang will scout out beneath the car and make a bracket. 🙂 

[JohnD]

12 hours ago, Jason C said:

Sounds great @JohnD are any sealant types/brands preferable? Guessing only a small amount on the gasket? Are there any flexible sealants that scrap off easy later on...

I use Firegum.   Non- flexible.