Mac Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 With hardtop on Diff is getting almost noisier than engine over 70 mph. Not really noticably noisy up to 50 mph.At higher speeds was a whine, now more of a moan, only on acceleration or at constant speed, no noise on deceleration. Is the diff on its way out, or still miles to go?If it needs doing is there any way I can do the job myself, (new crown wheel set and bearings?)Otherwise I'll have to find some specialist locally.Any idea what parts will be needed or is it strip the thing and see?Much rather DIY if at all possible.Thanks for any advice.Mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junkuser Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 There is a chance that the problem is that the pinion nut has backed off.Worth checking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac Posted November 1, 2007 Author Share Posted November 1, 2007 You mean the castellated nut on the front?Got a pin through it and the castellated bits have been crushed onto the thread of the pinion so will need to be split off methinks and probably new pinion. When I was changing the seals couldn't budge it with a long handled spanner either tighter or looser, so just left it and changed only the output shaft seals. In fact it leaks the occasional drop of oil from the front.Think the diff might have been runing low on oil when I got the car as it was leaking quite a bit from the output shafts which had shaken themselves loose + old seals.When I had the output shafts out to change the seals there was some oil in it but not a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junkuser Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Well it doesn't sound as though the pinion nut is the problem!As you did not describe the noise as harsh,irregular or grinding it sounds like a meshing problem and most likely due to slack or wear in the bearings. With any luck the crownwheel and pinion will be salvable but may not be silent.You can do the work yourself but peace of mind and time would favour the use of a specialist as getting the correct markings on a used diff requires experience to get the best compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 I suggest either a good used one or a recon exchange one. They are not at all easy to do properly at home (needs more talent/special tools than I've got anyway) and by the time you've bought the parts, even a decent recon one won't be all that much more and will come with a warranty....Yes, I have tried this and yes, it was rather loud afterwards!Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac Posted November 2, 2007 Author Share Posted November 2, 2007 Thanks guys, recon/exchange isn't really an option as sending from Italy to the Uk and back will be very expensive methinks.So maybe just bearings + shims.Monday I'll try phoning the machine shop that did the work on me engine, ask if they do diffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junkuser Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 Mac, if you want to have a try I feel sure you will be able to set the dif up well enough to do no further damage. It may not be silent. Assuming the surfaces of the gear teeth are not damaged, which I feel likely as it was basically "singing" from your description, the rebuiling is fairly straightforward and requires no special tools with a bit of inginuity (eg getting in the shims for the carrier bearing preload)Get the specs for your diff from a Triumph reference and read any other references on blueing to check mating you can find. I got my basic instructions from a Ford Zephyr workshop manual but there are plenty of other references.I have only refurbished 3 Spit diffs and they were all "Mk1"s. In all 3 the pinion nuts were loose (no locking devices), hence my suggestion to check this, not realising the design had been changed. There are plenty of other members of this group more expert than I who could give further assistance if you decide to go ahead.The car will be of the road for a while as getting the mating right can take some time when you are feeling your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac Posted November 2, 2007 Author Share Posted November 2, 2007 Thanks Junkuser,Ok, I'll have it out and apart and see what goesAny idea where I can find any info online on this? Torque wrench settings, carrier preload, end float, and how to check em, etc?GT, any idea who's doing diffs in France, prices, etc?Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac Posted November 2, 2007 Author Share Posted November 2, 2007 Found some stuff online.Obviously have to have it apart to check, but might just be shims. Still no idea of torque, endfloat, figures, etc.Already had the stub axles apart last winter to change the seals, bearings looked and felt ok so didn't change 'em. Already got the input flange seal.Found bearing kits here, wonder how many of these I'll need?http://www.transmission-rebuild-kits.co.uk/triumph-axle-parts-triumph-herald-axle-parts-c-82_110.html?osCsid=3582be0904a23c8330facc5707386564And one guy with a TR6 who did his like thisThis is a dirty job. Remove the cover & drain the old fluid. Check the old fluid for bits & pieces, this will give you a heads up for things to look for. Remove the axles.The stub axles must be pressed apart. I brought mine to a local machine shop & for about $30.00 I had them apart and ready for new seals & bearings. Assembly is done by torqueing down the nut.I know the manual says you need a Churchill case spreader but another TR Guru (Dick Taylor) explained how this can be done just by prying gently & lifting the unit out. It works perfectly, installation is just as simple. Mark bearing caps & position.Remove the pinion flange nut. Lay a piece of wood or soft mallet & tap out.After the pieces are out clean & inspect. After I took apart the carrier I realized one of the larger sun gears was missing a fiber washer. I installed new thrust washers behind the planet (smaller ) gears. I forgot to take pics, sorry.It seems that the pinion shims have given out. These can be sized on reassembly.After inspection I decided to reuse the pinion bearing & carrier side bearings. Install new seals. I was amazed how bad the old seals were but the shafts they slid on to were perfect.http://www.triumphowners.com/registry.cgi?sectionID=111014&vehicleID=384 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 GTEVO wrote:Also he did not say afterwards if the rebuild was successful or not (noisy or not)....I would imagine no-one would ever admit to it being noisy after having a go for fun eh??I already confessed above - my attempt was really noisy under load over about 60mph - noisier than it was before I started! However, I think Josh (who now has the car) managed to shut it up by cunning redistribution of shims. Dunno what breed the bearings were but they did cost rather alot!Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac Posted November 3, 2007 Author Share Posted November 3, 2007 Nick so was the diff noisy because the pinion-crown teeth weren't meshing at centre of tooth or not enough preload on pinion? Do you know what Josh did to quieten it down?Reading up about this, still don't know what backlash is.Seems whine-hum can oftne be caused by worn-broken shims and/or worn bearings and the crown-pinion could be ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted User Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 9 and 3/4 times out of 10 a whine from the diff in drive that quietens in coast is a worn out CW&P. Should be evident after a quick peek when the rear case is removed. No need to spend money on a unit with worn CW&P, just throwing good money after bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted User Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 A growing proportion of returning core exchange units we see coming back have had recent 'rebuilds' with new bearings/seals. The CW&P's are invariably shinny (and hence worn out) where they mesh, but still someone has gone to the time/expense of a rebuild? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted User Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 GTEVO wrote:CW and Ps are very certainly NOT worn out when Shiny. )Yes they are! A shiny surface all the way across the drive side of the tooth shows the hardness has long ago worn away (at least on a Triumph gearset). A good (Triumph) crown wheel should still have evidence of lapping marks (difficult to describe, but looks like dull machining marks) high and low (heel & toe) on the tooth with a lozenge shaped mark where the pinion has been running somewhere in the middle.If you want some shinny gearsets we have a skip full of them here you are welcome to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 Mac wrote:Nick so was the diff noisy because the pinion-crown teeth weren't meshing at centre of tooth or not enough preload on pinion? Do you know what Josh did to quieten it down?Reading up about this, still don't know what backlash is.Seems whine-hum can oftne be caused by worn-broken shims and/or worn bearings and the crown-pinion could be okMac,Have revisited Josh's Herald Bloghttp://moddedherald.blogspot.com/2006/07/black-art-of-differentials.htmlThis strongly suggests that I took too much account of getting the backlash (free play between the crownwheel and pinion) to the book figure and not enough effort into getting a nice meshing pattern. I guess this was particularly important here because the CW & P were (well) used so factory backlash figures together with the right mesh was never going to happen.NickPS: Dave, GT, the gear surfaces still showed the lapping marks over most over the surfaces which is why I thought the the thing to be re-buildable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted User Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 Nick_Jones wrote:PS: Dave, GT, the gear surfaces still showed the lapping marks over most over the surfaces which is why I thought the the thing to be re-buildableSounds like a good un. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted User Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 A customer of ours is as deaf as a post as a result of working on the Rootes Group CW&P lapping machines for 20 years. He got 'phased' out when Chrysler/Talbot/Peugeot whoever took over and they subbed the job out. A thing to behold apparently half a dozen lapping machines working 24/7, but quite noisy. What surprised me was how long a gearset would be left on the machine, I thought it would have been a quick on, and off thing, he soon put me right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted User Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 Is that for me? Do you mean Beanz Meanz Heinz or;'In 1933 Hadfields set up Beans Industries as a general engineering and foundry business. Beans Industries was sold to Standard Triumph in 1956 from where they became part of British Leyland. By 1975 they were known as Beans Engineering and a management buyout followed in 1988. In 1991 they purchased Reliant, which went into receivership in 1991 and took Beans with them.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted User Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 Do I remember reading somewhere that you ended up with some of the Beans stuff that was floating around in the early 90's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted User Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 post removed on request of author Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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