Head gasket, rings, or????

[Nick Jones]

The water can be only sucked back into the radiator if the overflow tube goes nearly to the bottom of the overflow bottle.  I suspect yours doesn't, so it can't draw the water back in.

From your description I agree with your initial diagnosis of shot rings on no. 4.  I also wonder if there is an underlying cooling system problem (partly blocked radiator or something) which has caused severe overheating the past and is the cause of the ring problems on no 4.  NO 4 is usually the first to suffer.

Nick

[Black Leviathan]

9375 wrote:

you might have burnt a valve, if she is running rough and low compression on one cylinder, you need to whip the head off to conferm

I sort of ruled out the burnt valve (I think) with the oil squirted into the cylinder during the second compression test. It would take a lot of oil to fill the combustion chamber and seal a valve and I didn't put that much in. (At least, I don't think it was that much.) Good thought though...

Nick_Jones wrote:

The water can be only sucked back into the radiator if the overflow tube goes nearly to the bottom of the overflow bottle.  I suspect yours doesn't, so it can't draw the water back in.

From your description I agree with your initial diagnosis of shot rings on no. 4.  I also wonder if there is an underlying cooling system problem (partly blocked radiator or something) which has caused severe overheating the past and is the cause of the ring problems on no 4.  NO 4 is usually the first to suffer.

Nick

The tube does go almost to the bottom of the overflow bottle. But when the engine cooled, the bottle was full right to the top of the threads when I removed the lid. So the engine didn't even suck an ounce of coolant back in.

The overheating could indeed be due to other things. After I bought the car, a friend of the seller's showed up at my place with a small SUV and the back fairly loaded with spare bits. He offered them to me for $100 and I wasn't about to say no.

In with the lot, is what looks to be a brand new 22" (full width) Spitfire rad. May be time to try swapping it out for the small original. But I don't know if that alone causes the overheating. (May need different hoses for the longer rad too.)

Thanks for the info that number 4 is usually the first to suffer on overheating.

I should post a photo of what the DPO did. Removed the original clutch fan (I have no idea why) and replaced it with an electric fan from Lord knows what, that he modified to "sort of" fit....  


Thanks guys!

[junkuser]

A simple thing to check first in relation to the water level is the radiator cap.
Correct double seal type required for water recovery, in good condition and correct reach for that radiator.

[Black Leviathan]

DPO Electric Fan modification. (whistle)





  



I just noticed the "missing" bits from the bottom corner of the rad after taking the photos.

This can't be good...

[Rallyspit]

The way that fan is mounted without a top support means it will "propel" straight through your radiator if you hit deep water. Also most of its effectiveness is lost by not having a shroud.

Regarding your low compression, as the "oil round the piston test" restored it, almost certainly rings or bore wear. What colour is the oil? It will be black if compression is leaking past the rings.

[uksnatcher]

Same symptoms i had on my 1500 IE overflow bottle filling/overflowing with no suction back into the rad when cooling. No white smoke or steam from exhaust. This went on for a few months.

It was the head gasket slowly starting to fail, as it started to missfire and white smoke eventually, comfirmng head gasket failure. Pulled the head, cleaned it up and fitted new headgasket. The coolant system works perfect now, i never have to question the overflow bottle, its always half full and the water level under the radiator cap is always full.

Good price for a box of bits inc a new full width Spitfire radiator ! ........good buy and just get it fitted, no extra length hoses needed, the 1500 should have had the wider rad from factory.. :)

Just looking at your pics, you need to find what operates the elec fan, i am assuming a sensor or probe? That needs testing or it will overheat if faulty.

Low comp in cyl 4 could just be sticky piston rings from standing? Doubt it tho :(

Also whats the cylindrical gizmo at the side of the overflow bottle with pipes running to it?................is it a charcoal/carbon filter for emmisions control?  

[Black Leviathan]

2154 wrote:

The way that fan is mounted without a top support means it will "propel" straight through your radiator if you hit deep water. Also most of its effectiveness is lost by not having a shroud.

Regarding your low compression, as the "oil round the piston test" restored it, almost certainly rings or bore wear. What colour is the oil? It will be black if compression is leaking past the rings.

If you look at the back of the fan motor, there are some round support rods that run sideways - from each side of the motor - out to the rad support bracket. So it's solid enough to not hit the rad.

But, you're right about the effectiveness. It's at least 1½" from the face of the rad and, it's not even centred top to bottom. The blades protrude above the rad, and don't reach the bottom. I don't think blowing air on the header tank will do a lot of good but the DPO must have.

The oil is fairly dark.

[Black Leviathan]

uksnatcher wrote:

Same symptoms i had on my 1500 IE overflow bottle filling/overflowing with no suction back into the rad when cooling. No white smoke or steam from exhaust. This went on for a few months.

It was the head gasket slowly starting to fail, as it started to missfire and white smoke eventually, comfirmng head gasket failure. Pulled the head, cleaned it up and fitted new headgasket. The coolant system works perfect now, i never have to question the overflow bottle, its always half full and the water level under the radiator cap is always full.

Good price for a box of bits inc a new full width Spitfire radiator ! ........good buy and just get it fitted, no extra length hoses needed, the 1500 should have had the wider rad from factory.. :)

Just looking at your pics, you need to find what operates the elec fan, i am assuming a sensor or probe? That needs testing or it will overheat if faulty.

Low comp in cyl 4 could just be sticky piston rings from standing? Doubt it tho :(

Also whats the cylindrical gizmo at the side of the overflow bottle with pipes running to it?................is it a charcoal/carbon filter for emmisions control?  

Thanks for the advise on the gasket. I'm just going to have to jump in feet first I guess and pull the head.

I have to admit, when I saw the like-new rad in the pile of goodies, it was hard to control the excitement....  ;D
Personally, I've only seen the narrow rad in the North American versions of the 1500. Maybe the engine was supposed to produce less heat with the low compression and emission crap on our engines. AFAIK, the UK/Euro 1500 produces about 20HP more than the NA version. (It's just hypothetical thought at this point.)

Now, regarding the fan switch... try not to laugh too hard.... the DPO connected it straight to the hot side of the ignition.... no fuse.... turn the key on, the fan runs. Turn it off, it stops...

Standing for a long period of time could indeed be related to the rings. I guess the only way I'll know is to pull the head.

I guess I should put an order in to Rimmer Bros....

[Black Leviathan]

Oh... The round thing by the overflow bottle is part of the North American emissions controls. It's a vapour recovery tank that is supposed to condense petrol vapours and feed them back to the fuel tank. I'm not sure if it's related to the loss of performance of the NA version but if it is.......

Someone - possibly the DPO - already removed what we call the "smog pump" and blocked the holes in the head. The Exhaust Gas Recirculation  valve is also gone.

The plan is to eventually convert the engine to UK/Euro spec so, I'll need to study what is and isn't the same as the NA version, to know how the UK version is hooked up for the hoses and such.

[herald948]

A couple of thoughts.

1. Slim chance that a ring or two on #4 is stuck, and maybe some sort of treatment with, say, SeaFoam or Marvel Mystery Oil or whatever might help.

2. One possible reason #4 is first to "overheat" might be that that's where all the silt and gunk builds up in the coolant passages. Have you flushed the block as well as the radiator (which looked overdue for a flush)? I wouldn't be surprised to hear that you'll open the block drain...and nothing will happen. If so, prod with a stiff wire or small screwdriver or the like until water/coolant gushes out, then keep flushing!

[rotoflex]

9442 wrote:

Oh... The round thing by the overflow bottle is part of the North American emissions controls. It's a vapour recovery tank that is supposed to condense petrol vapours and feed them back to the fuel tank. I'm not sure if it's related to the loss of performance of the NA version but if it is.......

It's part of the evaporative loss control equipment.  Evap equipment doesn't affect performance.

Quote:

Someone - possibly the DPO - already removed what we call the "smog pump" and blocked the holes in the head. The Exhaust Gas Recirculation  valve is also gone.

The plan is to eventually convert the engine to UK/Euro spec so, I'll need to study what is and isn't the same as the NA version, to know how the UK version is hooked up for the hoses and such.

UK/Euro spec would have a different head, compression ratio, etc.  The vague thing is what to point at & call UK/Euro spec.  It's sort of easy if you just describe it as OEM, but as you can see here on the forum, present UK spec varies over a wide array of performance modifications that pretty much cluster around the same, traditional ideas.    If you just want a really good performer compared to the original federal spec, you're still at what many people have done with them which is one or more of: block off the holes for the air pump, shave the head, get a hotter cam, upgrade the carburetion.  

[uksnatcher]

9442 wrote:

Now, regarding the fan switch... try not to laugh too hard.... the DPO connected it straight to the hot side of the ignition.... no fuse.... turn the key on, the fan runs. Turn it off, it stops...

??)  ??)  ??)  ??)

Various methods available for fan control:

Kenlowe bulb sensor in top hose:


Kenlow bulb sensor attached to rad:



Elec sensor soldered into rad:



Elec sensor in top hose:



Elec sensor in thermo housing:



As you can see many ways to control the elec fan......or put a mechanical/viscous fan back on... ;)

[Black Leviathan]

herald948 wrote:

A couple of thoughts.

1. Slim chance that a ring or two on #4 is stuck, and maybe some sort of treatment with, say, SeaFoam or Marvel Mystery Oil or whatever might help.

2. One possible reason #4 is first to "overheat" might be that that's where all the silt and gunk builds up in the coolant passages. Have you flushed the block as well as the radiator (which looked overdue for a flush)? I wouldn't be surprised to hear that you'll open the block drain...and nothing will happen. If so, prod with a stiff wire or small screwdriver or the like until water/coolant gushes out, then keep flushing!

Is there any recommendation on something to put in the cooling system to loosen the crud? Vinegar? CLR?

[Black Leviathan]

rotoflex wrote:

It's part of the evaporative loss control equipment.  Evap equipment doesn't affect performance.

UK/Euro spec would have a different head, compression ratio, etc.  The vague thing is what to point at & call UK/Euro spec.  It's sort of easy if you just describe it as OEM, but as you can see here on the forum, present UK spec varies over a wide array of performance modifications that pretty much cluster around the same, traditional ideas.    If you just want a really good performer compared to the original federal spec, you're still at what many people have done with them which is one or more of: block off the holes for the air pump, shave the head, get a hotter cam, upgrade the carburetion.  

Thanks for the feedback, Bill.

Yes, the vapour recovery system won't affect performance. And may actually improve fuel economy. (Minuscule, probably.) The air pump was gone and the head holes plugged before I got the car. EGR valve and tubes were also gone.

As for the rebuild.... in with that $100 load of bits I bought after getting the car, is also an earlier cylinder head. Casting number 312240/Stamped number 218139. It has the large inlet valves, and no air pump holes to plug. Properly milled I can get the compression ratio up to almost 9:1 with the dished pistons or 10.2:1 if I put flat tops in it. (Based on the graph put together by Paul Geithner.)

I've been collecting parts slowly over the past couple of years to make this a "project". So, I've also go a UK twin SU inlet manifold and twin SU's from a UK 1500. I bought a set of twin valve springs but I'm concerned about that causing more valve train/cam wear and not getting much in return. (Based on reading other threads here.) There is a set of stainless headers and sports exhaust around here somewhere as well.

I found a machine shop in Toronto that specializes in doing LBC block, head and camshaft work. They can regrind the stock cam into road, fast road, etc. levels. (There was an extra camshaft in that box of parts as well.)

I was just hoping to get some summer driving out of it before pulling the motor apart in the late fall.

[Black Leviathan]

uksnatcher wrote:

??)  ??)  ??)  ??)

Various methods available for fan control:

Kenlowe bulb sensor in top hose:

Kenlow bulb sensor attached to rad:

Elec sensor soldered into rad:

Elec sensor in top hose:

Elec sensor in thermo housing:

As you can see many ways to control the elec fan......or put a mechanical/viscous fan back on... ;)

After I got that spare full width rad, I picked up a pair of 80W, 9" electric cooling fans. I figured I can mount them side by side on the front face of the rad, pushing air through it. They will pretty well fill the entire red. They won't fit behind the rad as the stub for the old clutch fan interferes. Plus, the fans will run cooler in front of the rad.

I've been looking at thermal fan sensors from other cars because there are some with "dual" switches in them. One closes at a lower temp than the other. This would give me the option of having a "two speed" fan so I don't get quite so much noise off the two fans running at full speed whenever the motor is warm.

The problem I've found is that they all seem to only come in 14mm and 22mm threads. Which are a lot larger than the gauge sensor hole in the water pump housing.
Specs on one I've looked at are: Dual Temperature (87C-76C/93C-82C). If it would work, low speed would cut in at 87C and out at 76C. If the engine keeps getting hotter, the second switch would cut in at 93C for high speed, and drop out at 82C. (Back to low speed.)  There are others that the high side cuts in at 97C and some even as high as 120C. With the Spitfire, I'm thinking to stay below the normal boiling point of water for safety. Unless it's possible to have too much cooling. I can get most of the temperature ranges in either 22mm or 14mm.

Here is one example:

Does anyone know what the hole size is in the thermostat housing in that photo? (I believe that's from the last year or two of Spitfires?)

Then again... these are VW switches. My Spit may refuse to run, in protest, if I put one of those switches in it.

[uksnatcher]

Thats my car

This is how I mounted my fan temp sensor, drilled and tapped the thermostat housing to 3/8 bsp (the thermostat housing fits TR6 too i belive.... Stanpart number: 134681 ) and used a sensor with a good temp range and short probe found the 1.0 lt 1989-92 US spec Daihatsu Charade 92-87degree (fan operates at 92 deg - switches off at 87deg) about a £10 on ebay ....and i must say works perfectly on both std and wide radiators i have fitted  ;)

[rotoflex]

You've got a dead anemone stuck in your car next to the radiator.

[Black Leviathan]

uksnatcher wrote:

Elec sensor in thermo housing:


As you can see many ways to control the elec fan......or put a mechanical/viscous fan back on... ;)

This would have been my preference with the switch mounted right in the thermostat housing.

However.... it seems to be one of those "discontinued" parts. The recommendations on Rimmer Brothers  as substitutes, don't have the switch mount.

There are a couple available on eBay but, they want $100 for them so.... I think I'll go with the adapter in the top hose. I've read they can be drilled out and tapped for larger switches.

[Black Leviathan]

rotoflex wrote:

You've got a dead anemone stuck in your car next to the radiator.

I think I have at least one dead Mus Musculus in the passenger seat as well.


Or.... did you mean in Dan's pictues....?

[uksnatcher]

Dan dan Daaaan.....its Gaz..... :)

Bill....Its actually a mini milking machine to attach to the local farms cows (or sheep....not fussed) udders.....saves a fortune compaired to supermarket prices.... :P




Sometimes i use it as a triple air horn compressor too.... ;)  ;D

[Black Leviathan]

uksnatcher wrote:

Sometimes i use it as a triple air horn compressor too.... ;)  ;D

I was just about to ask....  ;D


BTW... did you cut out the grille for what appears to be fog lights in that picture?

Or just fire them through the uncut grille and up the bulb wattage to compensate?  ;D

[uksnatcher]

They are dual spot/driving lamps IE 2 units in one lamp unusal , i like em.
The outer driving lights have amber lenses 100w xenon bulbs, the inner spots have 35W 4300k HID bulb conversion.....no problem with dark nights.... ;) plus no cutting of grille + no airflow issues for cooling

[Black Leviathan]

Very nice!

No HID H4's on the main headlights?

[uksnatcher]

I didnt feel the need to improve the fantastic Philips X-Treme halogen H4's in the main headlamps to be honest, they are plenty bright without the added potential police interest of 'over bright' headlamps as i dont think they are strictly legal without auto beam adjusters.....didnt want to take the risk  ;)

[Scimher]

.....Cheap supermarket 'coca-cola' for radiators  the cheaper & nastier, the better.............