TR5 Engine

[Gt6s]

jcarruthers wrote:

You need two sets of injectors - that's the solutions.

It's quite common - it also means you get decent low rev performance.

This wont work, the second set of injectors need to be the same size as the main ones as they switch over, the second set of inject of will still be low on flow at the top end

[mikew]

Gt6s wrote:

This wont work, the second set of injectors need to be the same size as the main ones as they switch over, the second set of inject of will still be low on flow at the top end

I've not actually looked at this with the Omex ECU, but its worth looking at Dave Walker's site for the Emerald MD3 ECU http://www.emeraldm3d.com/em_how.html.  This ecu turns on the second set of injectors as well as the first set when a certain fueling rate is reached, so increasing the fuel supplied. He also advocates the use of 2 sets of injectors which are of unequal flow rates

mike

[James]

Gt6s wrote:

This wont work, the second set of injectors need to be the same size as the main ones as they switch over, the second set of inject of will still be low on flow at the top end

depends on the ecu?

[esxefi]

no,you can have progressive switch over.

[Gt6s]

mikew wrote:

I've not actually looked at this with the Omex ECU, but its worth looking at Dave Walker's site for the Emerald MD3 ECU http://www.emeraldm3d.com/em_how.html.  This ecu turns on the second set of injectors as well as the first set when a certain fueling rate is reached, so increasing the fuel supplied. He also advocates the use of 2 sets of injectors which are of unequal flow rates

mike

Okay ! Had a fresh look at the latest Emerald software, you are absoloutly correct.

In my defence my ECU is a few years old now and the technology has moved on.
My ecu only switches injector banks over at RPM and throttle position with no compensation for different injector sizes.


I do'nt even know what size my injectors are.

[GT6 M]

mike, im sure the omex you got will compensate for pressure, as well as an injector / flow change,

mine does,and its an older ,and less sophisticated modle than you got
can either have ,pressure,or  flow,  separtly

have a word with andy at Omex, very help full,
and could turn out to be alot cheaper

worth a look !!

Marcus

[mikew]

Indeed, thank you for your advice

mike

[mikew]

Dyno print outs attached, I am happy with these bearing in mind it was running out of fuel at just over 5000 rpm

when I get the new injectors it will go back on the dyno

mike

[GT6 M]

good results so far Mike,
its intresting to see the big  dip around 3500, its seems ,all our engines doo this,when modded

by the way, what cam duration,and lift you got in,or is it a secret!!
just it seems to bogg down low down,both tourque and hp, good indicator of hot cam,

regards Marcus

[Gt6s]

Nice engine spec Mikew. What are you for setting your rev limit at ?
How much are you overbored ?

I do'nt  know if you plan to wire it up or not, but be carefull not to use the full power shift cut between first and second gear.

No'one warned me till after the fact.

When I hit second there was a loud bang from the transmission, rear tyres lit up and things got very sideways very quickly this was on a straight dry road on 205 section tyres.
LUCKILY no damage was done but needless to say it's very hard on the transmission. Luckily not much of my transmission is std, If it had been I would have needed a brush and pan to pick it up.

I did'nt do that again.

[GT6 M]

Mike , here some pics of the injector mod I told ye aboot,

easy done, easy to come off if needed,

this really did help very low down  doddlin about, at very ..low revs..below idle,even in top OD
did not seem to notice any diff in wider throttle openings though

1, in the first 2, you can see the the groove in the injector,where the original plastic shroud was,
and can see method of attaching the mod, just crimped up,.





2, in this one, you can see the end ..cross.. i put in,  this turned the injectors from ones that squirted a 2 fut lang  ..jet of petrol, into ones that were just like the original PI yans,



regards Marcus

[shedmonkey]

just messed my pants looking at the pictures and graphs in this thread! so tell me when did we step out of the shed and into the space age! I seemed to have missed it!!

[esxefi]

marcus,
i kind of disagree that a modern injector would squirt a narrow jet as this is very bad for emissions and fuel economy,did you have your injectors cleaned?and what sort of mileage had they done?
plus if the plastic pintel cover is missing it will make a difference.
but yes your mod would help atomisation as the tube would be in the air stream and subject to turbulence so homogenising the mix.

[mikew]

Gt6s wrote:

Nice engine spec Mikew. What are you for setting your rev limit at ?
How much are you overbored ?

I do'nt  know if you plan to wire it up or not, but be carefull not to use the full power shift cut between first and second gear.

.

Rev limit will be 7000

overbored to 77mm

I have heard about the full power shift issues, I will pass on this.

mike

[mikew]

ajp wrote:

just messed my pants looking at the pictures and graphs in this thread! so tell me when did we step out of the shed and into the space age! I seemed to have missed it!!

There will still be some "shed tune" type parts, I have to fabricate the airbox yet, and I want to make some S shaped trunpets to clear the servo - as long as possible within the confimes of the bonnet and inner wing as this will improve the torque

mike

[GT6 M]

Essex , the modern injectors that I used are designed with a long squirt, [ i aint got a pic of the actuall squirt pattern ] as they fire right down the actual valve throat area, right onto the back of the valve, and compleatly atomising there, and then on into the combustion chamber,

have a look at where modern engines injectors are placed at,and where they are actually firing to

the other ones I tried,were of a rover 800,and these had some thing similar to what I did, BUT with  3 holes in em, but they were too big to fit in with out machine work,
but the spray pattern,was not as good as my mod,lots of big droplets,.

the triumph injectors actually squirt into the manifold,in a 60 deg cone, so will get well atomised in the air stream,and is a really fine mist, [ if you seen one, then you no what i on about ]

the rover 600,[ kehins ] were sqirting right at the manifold base, so what was happening,was you get  a petrol soaked manifold, cos the jet is so intense, it does no have time to vapourise,
cos its too intense,and too close to the manifold bottom,

[it was actually about 2 fut long, before the jet atomised,]

when this mod was done , I could reduce the  map figures low down by  about 30 clicks,and about 10 -15 in the lower mid range,  as  all the fuel I was injecting, was actually going into the cyls, and not pooling on the walls of the manifold, due to as well ..slow air speed..

especially,when the manifolds were cold,cos the petrol could no vapourise as much,cos of nee heat  Triumph,did not use an injector with a long jet, cos of where the injectors and manifolds were, so all i have done really, is emulate the originals,

its a bit like why carbs no act very good when engine is very cold, ,not enough atomisation,
so not enough fuel going in to engine

the injectors were cleaned,and had done 35000 mile,so donor car siad
its the way these ones work,long pencil thin jet,



Mr Slim Boy Dave, put a pic up not so long ago,of an xperimentle TR 5 head, with the injectors actually in the head, pointing down to the valve,
if the injectors were there, then my mod,would no have been needed,

regards Marcus

[mikew]

Marcus certainly has a point. The mechanical PI operates at much higher pressure - 110 psi compared to efi - 40 psi, and the fuel cones and atomisation are different.

I intend to rty this - nothing ventured nothing gained

mike

[James]

Very interesting

I am planning to use the PI manifolds with electronic injectors - they point right at the back of the valve

[mikew]

As my estate project is on hold at present it was time to get on with the 5, so I pulled the old engine out today, and was already to fit the new one, when I found the new engine had the wrong clutch plate - its got fine splines rather than the coarse Tr box ones.

Will nothing go smoothly?

I was really looking forward to this  :(

mike

[mikew]

At last progress with the 5 over the past few days  :)

Got the engine in


Started looming up the EFI wiring


Here's a picture of the exhaust secondaries down by the right of the gearbox, the actual collector is on the car floor in front

At least this Triumph therapy helps compensate for the delays with the estate

mike

[GT6 M]

Mike did you get bigger injectors , or just up the power/psi !!!
you could have maybe got away with the ones you got if you were no running ..sequential,  [ timed ] injection.
but its only timed up to about 2.5-3000 rpm, after that no benefit at all.

word of warning, the position of the TP, and its wires, try and make a heat sheild for it / them.

the heat slowly but surely does away with the TPS., it changes the TPS setting as it gets hot. so buggering the idle up. :-/ :-/ :-/
unless you got one of the newer infra red,or magnetic TPS,s which I will be going for, after the last new TPS packs in again, :-/ :-/

[James]

What effect does the TPS have on idle? I guess you're not running speed-density?

[GT6 M]

James, the Omex is not like the megasquirtrer.  the Idle has to be set on a setting of  1 tps, this is the idle setting. there is an idle stabilisation program, which keeps the idle at a given revs.
BUT when the tps goes to say 2, then the fuel injected is more, as ECU thinks engine is accelerating, so shuts the idle system  down as the engine speeds up.    AS idle only works below 2.  
if it drops to 0, then engine is in need of extra fuel, as the load tps has changed. so more ign and fuel are given.
one can alter the settings to compensate, but cos the ..swing ..between the settings is greater, the idle becomes lumpy and erratic.
this one is a first generation one, old now by todays standards, Mikes is a much more up to date thing, but going by the end TB, its still using a TPS for load sensing, [ which give instant throttle response [  so may well have the same issues when the TPS gets worn and  hot ,caused by heat from the exhaust.
its not the actuall running that is the prob, its the build up of heat when car is not moving that I find does it.  the wires to the tps, at the back end, and the cts at the thermostat, have actually melted /deformed due to heat.
Every thing that gets hot, will alter its length,width, so this is whats going on inside the tps,
more than the designed in allowances
the movement we are talking about is miniscule,as the tps is very  small, so it does no take much to move it.  a sign that it is going off, is that the readings on the computer screen are ..wobbling about.. but not enough to go from  1 to 2 , and the VE map jumps about by about 3-6  VE points,   make it bigger,and the prob will no be thea.

on a new tps, there are no probs at all,it works very well.
any wiser noo,!!!!

[mikew]

796 wrote:

Mike did you get bigger injectors , or just up the power/psi !!!
you could have maybe got away with the ones you got if you were no running ..sequential,   [ timed ] injection.
but its only timed up to about 2.5-3000 rpm, after that no benefit at all.

word of warning, the position of the TP, and its wires, try and make a heat sheild for it / them.

the heat slowly but surely does away with the TPS., it changes the TPS setting as it gets hot. so buggering the idle up. :-/ :-/ :-/
unless you got one of the newer infra red,or magnetic TPS,s which I will be going for, after the last new TPS packs in again, :-/ :-/

I hjaven't changed anything - yet. It needs a RR session when complete - I have the original dyno fiures to reference that to, and lets face it with an airbox etc etc there are going to be a number of tweaks required. I have another set of injectors ready that will flow more.

Interesting point on the TPS, its a resistive one, does a 5 get as hot under the bonnet as a GT6?. The exhausts ceramic coated so that should help

mike

[mikew]

jcarruthers wrote:

What effect does the TPS have on idle? I guess you're not running speed-density?

None, I am using the "scatter method" of maintaining idle, the ECU will maintain idle revs by altering the spark timing, this only works below a certain TPS threshold

mike