Triumph Vitesse – Fuel line shape and routing

[Jason C]

Hi there, a few questions with regards to a Triumph Vitesse, 2 Litre fuel line:

Can anyone help guide me to the correct shape and routing for the fuel pipe as it exits the fuel tank, under the body to the chassis? I have removed and cleaned the fuel tank – the current fuel pipe had a nasty kink at the right angle, so I am looking to replace. On closer inspection, the current set-up doesn't look correct. The pipe hangs down under the boot floor pan, forms basically a right angle as it exists the boot floor, then connects to a fuel hose attached via zip ties to the chassis, before connecting to the steel fuel line at the first cross member. I suspect the previous owner cut the metal pipe shorter as it was damaged, and connected with hose. 

Although this is my first Triumph, I imagine the fuel line would hug the underfloor then connect with a short rubber section for movement, then connect to the main metal fuel line? Rather than dangling down which looks a little dodgy. I don’t see any remains of clips. I’ve checked the spare parts catalogue, which gives an idea of the shape – but I can not visualise on the car.

1. Wondering if someone could kindly share some pictures of the original fuel line routing? I will then try and closely replicate by bending a wire to later form the pipe work.

2. Has anyone come across any correct diameter fuel hose for classic cars? I have purchased some Gates 1/4 inch hose (which the steel fuel lines are on my car), and it feels too loose. The previous hose was much tighter, a different brand called "Grommet" – which I can no longer source. Are modern hoses a true 1/4 inch internal diameter? And also, should fuel line hoses be clamped, and flare the ends of the steel pipe? Clamps look to be a must with the new fuel hose. I have sourced original carb fuel line rubber, which is very tight to push on, which tells me perhaps the new fuel hose isn‘t imperial dimensions... 

3. Could someone also share a picture of the fuel line as it emerges the chassis under the bonnet. I currently have a in-line fuel filter before the fuel pipe. Wondering how this originally looked, whether it floated there or had any brackets, or clips?

4. As the fuel hose exists through the reinforced last cross member before heading into the engine bay – did this cross member have any rubber grommets to protect the rubber fuel hose from potentially chaffing the chassis holes as it bends around into the engine bay?

Please find a couple of photos, this is basically its current set-up, steel pipe at a right angle (I have temp rubber holding the pipe in place) – imagine a rubber hose going from this and zip tied to the chassis before connecting to the steel pipe. The car has the correct metal clips that hold the fuel and brakes lines in the central section.

Thank you, appreciate any help, best from NZ.

 

[Clive]

It has been a while ince I owned a vitesse, but this diagram may help a little

https://www.canleyclassics.com/?catalogue=triumph-vitesse&diagram=triumph-vitesse-exhaust-and-petrol-systems

I remember the pip exiting and then being clipped to the bootrigger, along the main chassis rail with a join n the middle, and another just near teh front outrigger. Then throgh a hole in the outrigger, and point up towards teh fuel pump. 

I reckon they used a few rubber joins as the old steel pipe was not bendable during fitting, but with copper or kunifer it is possible to reduce the amount of bends.

Re rubber hoses, genuine Gates (as opposed to fake) should be correct imperial 1/4" size. But if you have copper pipework, it may be metric 6mm, which is a smudge smaller. What is essential is to use genuine R9 hose. Only buy from a trusted seller (not ebay etc, AFS stuff lasts a very short time) Moss sell the correct stuff, as do Glencoe and Merlin etc etc. 

Use of correct fuel hose clips is wise, this type (pic is a random one, but Mikalor ar a decent brand) but remember to buy them based on the outside diameter of the hose. 

clips to attach to the chassis should be available, or use P clips.

 

[Jason C]

29 minutes ago, Clive said:

It has been a while ince I owned a vitesse, but this diagram may help a little

https://www.canleyclassics.com/?catalogue=triumph-vitesse&diagram=triumph-vitesse-exhaust-and-petrol-systems

I remember the pip exiting and then being clipped to the bootrigger, along the main chassis rail with a join n the middle, and another just near teh front outrigger. Then throgh a hole in the outrigger, and point up towards teh fuel pump. 

I reckon they used a few rubber joins as the old steel pipe was not bendable during fitting, but with copper or kunifer it is possible to reduce the amount of bends.

Re rubber hoses, genuine Gates (as opposed to fake) should be correct imperial 1/4" size. But if you have copper pipework, it may be metric 6mm, which is a smudge smaller. What is essential is to use genuine R9 hose. Only buy from a trusted seller (not ebay etc, AFS stuff lasts a very short time) Moss sell the correct stuff, as do Glencoe and Merlin etc etc. 

Use of correct fuel hose clips is wise, this type (pic is a random one, but Mikalor ar a decent brand) but remember to buy them based on the outside diameter of the hose. 

clips to attach to the chassis should be available, or use P clips.

 

Hi Clive, thank you for your help!

If the same steel pipe is used exiting from the tank, through the boot and then connecting to the outrigger – is there much flex between the car body and the chassis? Flex that could over time fracture the pipe? I guess there is a rubber grommet the steel pipe passes through the boot hole to allow for some movement.

I’ve read the name of the game is to reduce the amount of rubber hose used in the system and obviously joins? And also that rubber hose can actually leak fumes through the material itself, which is interesting as its used inside the boot. 

The metal fuel line is the steel variety, perhaps the original feed from the tank. The Gates fuel hose should be genuine as I purchased from a reputable brake specialist. But one never knows these days, this particular Gates hose is made in Mexico. I asked about R9 hose at the time of purchase and they looked at me funny. Perhaps they don’t know what they’re doing – or New Zealand isn’t using the latest standard.I tried another fuel hose today, stamped 1/4 inch from a hydraulic shop – and still felt loose on the steel pipe. Its only slightly loose, but doesn't feel tight and larger internal diameter. I will have to scout around some more for R9.

Thanks Clive

 

[Clive]

6 minutes ago, Jason C said:

Hi Clive, thank you for your help!

If the same steel pipe is used exiting from the tank, through the boot and then connecting to the outrigger – is there much flex between the car body and the chassis? Flex that could over time fracture the pipe? I guess there is a rubber grommet the steel pipe passes through the boot hole to allow for some movement.

I’ve read the name of the game is to reduce the amount of rubber hose used in the system and obviously joins? And also that rubber hose can actually leak fumes through the material itself, which is interesting as its used inside the boot. 

The metal fuel line is the steel variety, perhaps the original feed from the tank. The Gates fuel hose should be genuine as I purchased from a reputable brake specialist. But one never knows these days, this particular Gates hose is made in Mexico. I asked about R9 hose at the time of purchase and they looked at me funny. Perhaps they don’t know what they’re doing – or New Zealand isn’t using the latest standard.I tried another fuel hose today, stamped 1/4 inch from a hydraulic shop – and still felt loose on the steel pipe. Its only slightly loose, but doesn't feel tight and larger internal diameter. I will have to scout around some more for R9.

Thanks Clive

 

Ah, didn't realise you are in NZ. No idea what fuels you have, is ethanol added? That is what the R9 is about. 

You may find 6mm hose is a snug fit? 1/4" is 6.25mm, so it would be a tad tighter fit. But proper hose clamps will be eb=nough to sort the issue.

Regarding fumes, some of the latest hoses have very high resistance to permeability. I iported some Gates hose from the USA, and it exceeds the spec for California, which has the toughest rules of all on emissions etc.

 

[Jason C]

From memory around 10% ethanol is added to fuel at a particular service station. But best to be on the safe side. Great points regarding permeability, reducing any smells is a good thing.

[Ben Hutchings]

I don’t want to take this too off topic when it comes to routing, but it’s worth checking your Gates hose for a code. “SAE J30 R…” if it’s R9 or R14 you’re good, won’t smell and will resit up to E85 I think. If it’s R6 I’d recommend not fitting it, or only for a shorty time, view it as a temporary hose.

Routing wise, on my (GT6) tank exit has a right-angled 5/16 fitting and 5/16 hose to Facet pump, then hose to some steel pipe, then a small section of 5/16 hose in the middle of the car, then steel again up towards the old pump location, and 5/16 to a fuel regulator mounted on the bulkhead. About 1 meter of 5/16 in all. I think with R9 or R14 hoses, properly clamped as per clive’s suggestion, you don’t have to limit length too much. 

[Jason C]

11 hours ago, Ben Hutchings said:

I don’t want to take this too off topic when it comes to routing, but it’s worth checking your Gates hose for a code. “SAE J30 R…” if it’s R9 or R14 you’re good, won’t smell and will resit up to E85 I think. If it’s R6 I’d recommend not fitting it, or only for a shorty time, view it as a temporary hose.

Routing wise, on my (GT6) tank exit has a right-angled 5/16 fitting and 5/16 hose to Facet pump, then hose to some steel pipe, then a small section of 5/16 hose in the middle of the car, then steel again up towards the old pump location, and 5/16 to a fuel regulator mounted on the bulkhead. About 1 meter of 5/16 in all. I think with R9 or R14 hoses, properly clamped as per clive’s suggestion, you don’t have to limit length too much. 

Hi Ben, thank you for the recommendation of the fuel hose and routing. The hose is labeled ‘Gates 4219G SAE 30R7 Fuel Line PCV/EEC 1/4" (6.3mm) 50 PSI (3.4 Bar) Made in Mexico‘. 

Has anyone had any experience with ‘Gates Barricade’ hose? It has a special barrier to reduce permeation. Comes in both a fuel injection and for carbureted cars. The fuel injection variety maybe an overkill for this application. Found on an MGB forum where the internal hose started to disintegrate and go through the fuel system, perhaps was a bad batch. Gates mentions Barricade (MPI), “Exceeds SAE J30R14T2 (except for kink resistance)” – kink resistance is interesting. Assume the hose does not link hard radius, would need to ensure an open loop when connecting the hose between the fuel tank and steel pipe that exits the boot. 

[Jason C]

Hi folks! Some photos of my current Vitesse fuel-line, please bear with me as they are partially disassembled. 

I‘ve tried to mark the photo of the rear in yellow, where I think the fuel-line may travel. Perhaps the pipe exits beneath the boot, bends at 90º to hug beneath the floorpan, turns downwards 90º to centre with the chassis, then turns left and travels along the chassis to join at a rubber connector between the main fuel-line. Not sure how this would have clipped in place originally though? I see only one small hole, near the end of the boot outrigger (which seems the wrong direction) and no other holes, bar the large one above the tow ring.  Perhaps it would have clipped to the brake lines?

Added a photo of the engine bay fuel-line. The rubber hose comes from under the chassis holes to meet the fuel filter. Of curiosity, I have an unused clip on the engine bay metal cowl, (highlighted with the yellow box) – anyone know what should be contained within this? Don’t think it’s related to fuel or brake hoses, as seems too high up. But thought Id mention.

If anyone has a Vitesse, or Herald (assume would be the same) with the original fuel-line configuration and wouldn’t mind clambering beneath the car to snap a few photos – that would be fantastic. Or can point me to some reference photos. Ideally, I would like to create a good match. 

Thanks all, appreciate your help.

 

[yorkshire_spam]

9 hours ago, Jason C said:

Has anyone had any experience with ‘Gates Barricade’ hose? It has a special barrier to reduce permeation.

I've been using Barricade since 2015 - never had any issues at all with it. I imported it from the US when I found that the "so called" R9 available in the uk had a lifespan measured in weeks, frankly I think that trash is lethal. 

[Rutty]

I have used barricade for a year now and no problems yet. You can buy it from Moss or the TSSC shop. Discount for TSSC Members.

[Jason C]

15 minutes ago, yorkshire_spam said:

I've been using Barricade since 2015 - never had any issues at all with it. I imported it from the US when I found that the "so called" R9 available in the uk had a lifespan measured in weeks, frankly I think that trash is lethal. 

Glad to hear! Did you opt for the fuel injected variety? Also, did you the 6.3mm, find it a good tight fit on the pipework?

https://www.gatesaustralia.com.au/~/media/files/gates-au/automotive/brochures/cooling-system-and-hose-products/gates-fuel-hose-flyer--june-2018.pdf

[Jason C]

8 minutes ago, Rutty said:

I have used barricade for a year now and no problems yet. You can buy it from Moss or the TSSC shop. Discount for TSSC Members.

Thanks for the recommendation Rutty! Barricade looks to be a good product. Did you fit the 6.3mm on 1/4" pipe? Tight fit, or clamp? Im planning to mushroom the ends of the steel fuel pipe.

By the way, love the additional spotlights on your car – looks superb! Do you have any photos online, would love to see it. 

 

[yorkshire_spam]

53 minutes ago, Jason C said:

Glad to hear! Did you opt for the fuel injected variety? Also, did you the 6.3mm, find it a good tight fit on the pipework?

https://www.gatesaustralia.com.au/~/media/files/gates-au/automotive/brochures/cooling-system-and-hose-products/gates-fuel-hose-flyer--june-2018.pdf

I'm using the carb variety and it's true 1/4" and 5/16" bore, so never had any issues with fit on the pipework (provided appropriate clips are used)

 

[Jason C]

14 minutes ago, yorkshire_spam said:

I'm using the carb variety and it's true 1/4" and 5/16" bore, so never had any issues with fit on the pipework (provided appropriate clips are used)

 

Thanks Sam, sorry by 5/16" bore – some of the Vitesse fuel line a different dimension? Did you use stainless hose clamps? 

[yorkshire_spam]

1 minute ago, Jason C said:

Thanks Sam, sorry by 5/16" bore – some of the Vitesse fuel line a different dimension? Did you use stainless hose clamps? 

Sorry @Jason C I don't honestly know - my experience is Dolomite and Spitfire based. IIRC on the Spitfire between the tank and the long fixed pipe along the chassis is a short section of 5/16" bore and everything at the front end is 1/4". OTOH pretty much all of the pipes are 5/16" bore on the Dolomite (1850).

[Jason C]

10 minutes ago, yorkshire_spam said:

Sorry @Jason C I don't honestly know - my experience is Dolomite and Spitfire based. IIRC on the Spitfire between the tank and the long fixed pipe along the chassis is a short section of 5/16" bore and everything at the front end is 1/4". OTOH pretty much all of the pipes are 5/16" bore on the Dolomite (1850).

Thanks @yorkshire_spam, appreciate your help. I look to be set with the brand of fuel hose. Fingers crossed someone knows how to route the pipe work. 

[Rutty]

2 hours ago, Jason C said:

Thanks for the recommendation Rutty! Barricade looks to be a good product. Did you fit the 6.3mm on 1/4" pipe? Tight fit, or clamp? Im planning to mushroom the ends of the steel fuel pipe.

By the way, love the additional spotlights on your car – looks superb! Do you have any photos online, would love to see it. 

 

I fitted what TSSC said was the correct hose for 1/4 pipe at the tank and front end. I also have 5/16 under the car and they supplied the correct hose for this as well. Not sure what the mm size is and its to cold to go and investigate. I always use clamps I wouldn't trust a push fit on it own.

Thanks for the comment re my Vitesse. The spot lights are made by Ring, I used to have them  on my first car a Vauxhall Viva and then later on my Austin Agro in the 80s. They then spent 30 years in a box in a barn till I found them again and fitted them on the Vitesse.  There are photos on the CT gallery.

Cheers

Mark

 

[RobPearce]

4 hours ago, Jason C said:

Thanks Sam, sorry by 5/16" bore – some of the Vitesse fuel line a different dimension?

That depends on the model. Mk1 Vitesse fuel pipe was 1/4" all the way. Mk2 had 5/16" from tank to pump (although I think the pickup pipe in the tank was still 1/4").

4 hours ago, yorkshire_spam said:

IIRC on the Spitfire between the tank and the long fixed pipe along the chassis is a short section of 5/16" bore and everything at the front end is 1/4"

Again, depends on model. Up to Mk3 the Spitfire had 1/4" pipe all the way. It was enlarged to 5/16" up to the pump for 1500 - I'm not sure which way the 1300 Mk4 went.

[Jason C]

10 hours ago, RobPearce said:

Thanks Sam, sorry by 5/16" bore – some of the Vitesse fuel line a different dimension?

Thanks @RobPearce yes, my Mk1 Vitesse fuel pipe is 1/4" inch all the way.

[Jason C]

13 hours ago, Rutty said:

Thanks for the comment re my Vitesse. The spot lights are made by Ring, I used to have them  on my first car a Vauxhall Viva and then later on my Austin Agro in the 80s. They then spent 30 years in a box in a barn till I found them again and fitted them on the Vitesse.  There are photos on the CT gallery.

 @Rutty The spot lights look great, form a nice line with the Vitesse headlights, compliment the car very nicely!

[Jason C]

Update! Not too exciting, but another little piece of the puzzle solved. Today I learnt my clips holding the brake and fuel line to the chassis are upside down.
 

A top Triumph bloke (Steve) pointed out that the brake pipe goes to the bottom with the fuel line at the top. 
 

Fingers crossed someone on this wonderful community knows how the rear and engine bay fuel line should be bent and attached. 🤞🏼

[Jason C]

Hello folks,

Is there a consensus on the diameter of fuel-line hose in the Vitesse, 2 Litre? Is it 1/4 inch or 5/16 inch? 

My current system is:

• 1/4" from the fuel tank itself (pick-up tube)
• 1/4" main steel fuel line
• 5/16" small section feeding into fuel pump (looks like a new addition, has an in-line filter)
• 1/4" from the fuel pump to the carbs.

Judging from my system, I could assume its 1/4 inch. However, I have also seen it noted as 5/16" with the Herald as 1/4". Did the Vitesse have the larger 5/16" fuel line, and does it make a difference?

If a 5/16 inch main fuel-line it seems odd that the line coming from the tank is 1/4 inch. Also brings up the issue of connecting the two different diameter lines. Or perhaps Triumph kept the fuel tank pick-up hose at 1/4 inch from the Herald, and used the larger 5/16 for the rest of the system? But if they increased the fuel tank size for the Vitesse, why not change the pick-up fuel line at the same time, more expensive to manufacture perhaps. I have the original mechanical AC pump, which seems a little odd (to a novice) that 5/16 goes in, with a smaller diameter going out.

Maybe I’m over thinking it, perhaps does not make a big difference at all. Just wanting to buy some more fuel-line and want to do it right once. 

Also, any thoughts on a preferred or recommend material:

• ‘Kunifer Cupro Nickel’ – apparently good combination of properties, easier to bend than steel, long lasting and does not rust.
• Steel - current fuel line looks steel, silver in colour, maybe had a coating of some sort.
• Copper – seen copper around, easy to bend to shape, non rusting. Yet, some say to not use for fuel lines as copper can fatigue over time.

Thanks for any pointers

best,

Jason

 

 

[RobPearce]

The Vitesse 2L (Mk1) was 1/4" all the way. The Mk2 was 5/16" from tank to pump, then 1/4" from pump to carbs. I think the pick-up pipe in the tank was 1/4" on all (even the Dolomite tank had a stub of 1/4" outlet before going 5/16" for the main pipe) but some people say otherwise. I suppose I could check my spare tank.

As to material, I'd go Cunifer or copper. I don't think the work hardening thing is that much of an issue in real life but you may as well avoid it anyway.

[Jason C]

14 minutes ago, RobPearce said:

The Vitesse 2L (Mk1) was 1/4" all the way. The Mk2 was 5/16" from tank to pump, then 1/4" from pump to carbs. I think the pick-up pipe in the tank was 1/4" on all (even the Dolomite tank had a stub of 1/4" outlet before going 5/16" for the main pipe) but some people say otherwise. I suppose I could check my spare tank.

As to material, I'd go Cunifer or copper. I don't think the work hardening thing is that much of an issue in real life but you may as well avoid it anyway.

Thanks @RobPearce appreciate the concise information, puts my mind at ease! 1/4 inch all the way for my Vitesse 2L.

I will check my measurement of the short line going into the fuel pump, its slightly squashed, I think from the previous owners bend. I take it this should be a 1/4” going into the AC mechanical pipe? 

[RobPearce]

3 hours ago, Jason C said:

I take it this should be a 1/4” going into the AC mechanical pipe?

It doesn't matter terribly much - whatever fits the pump best. I think mine does have a short stub of 5/16" there but my pump came off a 2500S (I had a cracked block and went from a very early to a not-quite-so-early engine, and the pump is different so needed replacing).