Velocita Rosso Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 I need a main shaft for a 3 rail,full syncro, overdrive gearbox 1500 Spitfire. Anyone have such a thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 Thought the 1500 Spit had a single rail and the mainshafts are definitely different between the two types. Anyway if you want a shaft to use directly rather than repair I think Bastuck are the only people producing them now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
standardthread Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 24 minutes ago, Velocita Rosso said: I need a main shaft for a 3 rail,full syncro, overdrive gearbox 1500 Spitfire. Anyone have such a thing? Which part of the shaft, input that mates with the engine, or rear that mates with the O/D? I have a spare of the later! 5 minutes ago, glang said: Thought the 1500 Spit had a single rail and the mainshafts are definitely different between the two types. Correct, 1500's are single rail and have 20 spline shafts, 3 rails are 10 spline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 Mainshaft will be the one that connects to the OD and gets its tip chewed up by the needle roller bearing that sits in the input shaft. Its this tip size that changed for 3 and single rail boxes but of course there might be other differences such as whether a D or J type OD is being used... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocita Rosso Posted September 21, 2022 Author Share Posted September 21, 2022 3 rail, full syncro, overdrive 10 spline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
standardthread Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 8 minutes ago, Velocita Rosso said: 3 rail, full syncro, overdrive 10 spline Caged tip bearing, three rail 'D' type O/D, I have one, will check if my other shaft will fit the input shaft tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
standardthread Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 1 hour ago, glang said: Mainshaft will be the one that connects to the OD and gets its tip chewed up by the needle roller bearing that sits in the input shaft. Its this tip size that changed for 3 and single rail boxes but of course there might be other differences such as whether a D or J type OD is being used... The mainshaft in the three rail box is in two parts, O/D and non O/D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 Struggling to make sense of the picture of the damaged part…… Had it previously had a tip repair? Is the inside surface on the input shaft ok as it looks like something bad happened there?! If both parts are damaged I suggest getting an uprated mainshaft with the 18mm tip and modify input shaft. More costly for sure, but much stronger. Nick 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
standardthread Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 13 hours ago, Velocita Rosso said: I need a main shaft for a 3 rail,full syncro, overdrive gearbox 1500 Spitfire. Anyone have such a thing? This is the spare main (output?) shaft I have spare. It's the reduced tip version to take the large caged roller bearings. Can't find the cage or rollers to illustrate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 Wow that mainshaft tip does look strange. To me its either completely knackered or has been machined to a configuration Ive never seen - the end looks a bigger diameter than where the needle roller runs so would need some sort of split bearing? If that is the case the surface would need to be case hardened again to give it a long enough life... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
standardthread Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, glang said: or has been machined to a configuration Ive never seen - the end looks a bigger diameter than where the needle roller runs so would need some sort of split bearing? If that is the case the surface would need to be case hardened again to give it a long enough life... Not by me. It's as I took it out of a box, the cage and large rollers came out with it the rollers sitting in the recess, and, from memory, last time I re-built an O/D box there was the choice of two types of bearings from John Kipping etc. The surface of the recess is also bright/polished. Edited September 22, 2022 by standardthread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 6 hours ago, glang said: Wow that mainshaft tip does look strange. That mainshaft tip is badly worn. It should be cylindrical at (or slightly larger than) the largest diameter at the tip. Could possibly be recovered by turning back to cylindrical and press/shrink fitting a hardened bearing sleeve. Not recommended for hard usage. Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 20 hours ago, Velocita Rosso said: Yes I think this is an attempted repair where the shaft has had the tip cut off and then been bored to accept a short shaft. This has had a sleeve of the correct outside diameter shrunk on to it but its all come loose and worn horribly. Must have been interesting driving with it😯 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyb Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 On 21/09/2022 at 19:57, Velocita Rosso said: I need a main shaft for a 3 rail,full syncro, overdrive gearbox 1500 Spitfire. Anyone have such a thing? Thats a hybrid box, not one out the factory! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 Well not sure cos recently I found that some 1500 Spitfires were sold abroad with a 3 rail box using a 10 spline version of the bigger clutch plate.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPearce Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 Yes, the US market got the 1500 engine earlier than UK, and those cars had a 3-rail box. The whole setup, including clutch, was lifted from the 1500TC. I don't think that's what VR has, though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin R Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 Built during a strike perhaps ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
standardthread Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 (edited) 21 hours ago, glang said: Wow that mainshaft tip does look strange. To me its either completely knackered or has been machined to a configuration Ive never seen 15 hours ago, Nick Jones said: That mainshaft tip is badly worn. It should be cylindrical at (or slightly larger than) the largest diameter at the tip. Could possibly be recovered by turning back to cylindrical and press/shrink fitting a hardened bearing sleeve. Not recommended for hard usage. Nick OK folks, firstly I would never sell, attempt to sell, or give away ANY part I suspected of being damaged, OR modified, that goes for this shaft, I will keep it, my kids can then scrap it when I shuffle off. I have just done a dry re-assembly of the total mainshaft.To clarify, please see these latest photographs, the bearing runs in the input (main) shaft recess, the output (main) shaft then traps the bearing in the input shaft and and does not turn in the bearing, it would appear that recess in the output shaft acts as an oil reservoir. These are old bearings that I couldn't find yesterday. I will find the Kipping or other parts catalogue to give you the part numbers. As I have a bearing complete, and a cage for a second bearing, the O/D box I re-built for my Herald Estate 40 years ago must have this type of output shaft, and, I have driven that car, hard, for in excess of 50k. Edited September 23, 2022 by standardthread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 (edited) This spigot bearing between the input shaft and mainshaft is a known weakness on all the small chassis 3 rail gearboxes. The 1/2” tip on the mainshaft is too small for the job. It’s there to allow the two shafts to move at different speeds in gears 1-3 and as well as enabling the rotation is also has to withstand the side loads (pushing upwards) generated by the meshing gears. As the bearing and shaft wear, the mainshaft deflects, meaning that the loads are taken on the ends of the rollers accelerating the west rate and tending to taper the tip. If the input shaft bearing is worn, loads on the spigot bearing increase. Likewise if the pilot bush in the back of the crankshaft is worn or missing. Lubrication is marginal as the bearing is above the oil level and although there is a complete maelstrom of oil in there flicked up by the gears when the engine is running, it’s mostly being flicked away from the bearing. Triumph experimented with various different oil feed holes in the input shafts over the years culminating in holes drilled through the root of the input shaft gear so that the meshing action would positively force oil into the bearing. Note that flat-towing causes the mainshaft to turn inside stationary gears and input shaft at higher relative speeds than would normally happen when driving, without the splash lubrication…… While the service life is mostly “acceptable” on the 4 cylinder cars, on the 6 cylinder cars it really is not. All sorts of “repairs” get done, some better engineered that others, but nearly all fail to recognise the lubrication issue and make matters worse by blocking what provision there is. Single rail gearboxes have an 18mm tip, which survives very much better. Aftermarket mainshafts exist for the 3 rails, though the input shaft must be modified to suit, and are well worth the extra effort and expense IMO. There are also some 16mm tips out there, I think originating from John Kipping. Some words and pics on the subject from my GT6 resto a few years back…https://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/7535-nick-chriss-gt6-mk-3/page/5/#comments Edited September 24, 2022 by Nick Jones 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
standardthread Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 25 minutes ago, Nick Jones said: Aftermarket mainshafts exist for the 3 rails, though the input shaft must be modified to suit, and are well worth the extra effort and expense IMO. There are also some 16mm tips out there, I think originating from John Kipping. The box I have re-built, and in my estate, and this shaft came from untouched factory built boxes that I took apart, this isn't an OEM from Kipping, I just remember him, and others, stocking two bearing sizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 3 hours ago, RobPearce said: Yes, the US market got the 1500 engine earlier than UK, and those cars had a 3-rail box. The whole setup, including clutch, was lifted from the 1500TC. I don't think that's what VR has, though? Yes as you say it could be just a PO mod with 3 rail OD box fitted in a 1500 Spitfire using a 1500TC clutch. It could have a J or D type OD depending where it had been sourced from but in either case would probably have the 1" longer propshaft to go with it. I take it the mainshaft needed will depend on the type of OD it has? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thescrapman Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 Mike has an early Mk4 Spitfire d-type box in hIs car from talking to him yesterday. So a bit of confusion in the description. And hopefully he is making some progress to a fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 Well its good news as Bastuck make all three types of OD mainshafts, 3 rail D type, 3 rail J type and single rail J type. All around the 200€ mark including VAT (but delivery and import duties to be added) however the quality as we have seen is something else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocita Rosso Posted September 24, 2022 Author Share Posted September 24, 2022 To end every ones speculation of who, why or what, I have purchased a new 3 rail(recon) gearbox. There have been speculations and comments by a certain person, who should not be advertising sales and wants on CT`s Facebook page/account and a few intimating I don t know what I appear to be talking about. I have always had a 3 rail box in my Mk3 Spitfire and has a D type overdrive with ten spline clutch Maybe there are opinions that a single rail should be the way to go, but I do not intend converting and even changing to a J type over drive My car has done many more miles than most club members and ,I admit, had some hammer from auto solos to Ten Countries goat herding....and has done sterling service...until now, where by the gearbox has created no other problems previously. By mid week the car will be reassembled and ready for active service once more......that is to say ,if no more additional peripheral problems occur...like the steel water pump pipe to heater splitting, and the aluminium water pump housing having a poor thread to accommodate the new nut and olive, and the stainless exhaust pipe on number two outlet parting and need welding etc etc. The Ten CR certainly put a strain on the car this time and the Yorkshire pockets seem to be getting thread bare 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPearce Posted September 24, 2022 Share Posted September 24, 2022 1 hour ago, Velocita Rosso said: Maybe there are opinions that a single rail should be the way to go, but I do not intend converting I, too, have a Mk3 Spitfire with a 1500 engine and a Mk4 3-rail gearbox. I think my clutch solution is different from yours. I completely agree that it's the correct solution for a Mk3 - a single rail just doesn't feel right. Glad you've found a suitable replacement box. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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