Where to send engine for upgrade

[Will It Ever Run Again]

Morning all.

My resto of my BRG 1500 is going well. I've pulled apart and rebuilt most of the suspension and front brake parts now, all of which are being upgraded with a performance improvement in mind.

However I want to decide soon where to send my engine to for a rebuild so I can gain as much of a performance boost as I can but while keeping to a 4 cylinder Spitfire 1500 engine. The alternatives are I do it myself (but I'm not an expert in this area and I want to get the car finished before I die of old age) or I could just buy in a stage 2 or 3 (I don't yet know what these stages mean) engine but ideally I want to keep as much of my original engine as I can (even though I know it's tired).

I know there are companies out there who I can talk to about this (Triumphtune, Jigsaw, John Kipping etc) but I thought it worth the opinion of people who are not trying to sell me anything!

The car will not be raced but will be driven hard and will experience the odd track day. I used to race and long to see a track again but am not interested in the commitment of a race series just yet and certainly not with this car.

So what do you think?

Many thanks.

Steve

[Slimboyfat]

8955 wrote:

Morning all.

<or I could just buy in a stage 2 or 3 (I don't yet know what these stages mean)>

and neither do most of the establishments punting out such stuff either.

8955 wrote:

<John Kipping>

John was never really interested in such stuff, and his interest declined even further when he retired, and emigrated to NZ 15 years ago.  

8955 wrote:

<The car will not be raced but will be driven hard and will experience the odd track day. I used to race and long to see a track again but am not interested in the commitment of a race series just yet and certainly not with this car.

So what do you think?>

Build it yourself with the help, and advice of this Forum.

And avoid anyone selling you a 'Stage 2, or 3' engine (did I say that already?)!

[John Bonnett]

Now, you have my interest because I'm also looking to up the power of my 1300 to a usable and reliable 100 horse power.

[Slimboyfat]

Cam, decent manifold, slight raise in compression, and carb/ignition work on a rolling road by someone experianced in small capacity engines (avoid Triumph 'specialists', try some of the better MG people).

Don't be tempted to go to big on the carbs, and you don't need fancy ignition, it can all be done on old fashioned stuff.

100 horse power is relatively modest on a 1300.

[Clive]

This is a really tricky ask.

from what you say I suspect you want to build a good reliable engine with good power, rather than a short lived max power one?
having destroyed a number of 1500's in the past few years I would avoid anything too revvy. And fit a rev limiter....
That out of the way it has got to be the std stuff, head flowed, raise compression and a matching camshaft. TR5 profile may be a good profile?
Then a careful build and balance.

As to the 1300, same thing except it will happily rev a fair bit further, so a hotter cam.

Headwork? peter burgess has a good reputation. I am sure there are others out there too. I believe the triumph dealers who offer the various "tunes" send them off anyway. Cut out the middleman....

[Will It Ever Run Again]

Thanks all.
Yes it needs to be reliable of course, it's not a race car and I don't want to have to rebuild it regularly.
What sort of power is attainable from a 1500 block with such mods?

[CHRIS211083]

3141 wrote:

Now, you have my interest because I'm also looking to up the power of my 1300 to a usable and reliable 100 horse power.

John I know what your thinking and thats exactly what I wanted from my spit engine but it aint that simple and 100hp takes alot of faffing to keep right. Just change the engine.

Chris.

[CHRIS211083]

8955 wrote:

Thanks all.
Yes it needs to be reliable of course, it's not a race car and I don't want to have to rebuild it regularly.
What sort of power is attainable from a 1500 block with such mods?

1500 will pull 100hp as I said above but these engine just were not designed for this kind of out put and the more oomph you get the more spannering you have to do to keep it there and the quicker things go wrong. If you want reliable and more power, for the same cash as tuning a spit motor you can have a Zetec with full efi and a 5 speed box for the same price. Totally reliable, better mpg etc etc. Each to there own but I've tried the tuning co. before and lost alot of cash.

Chris.

[John Bonnett]

2402 wrote:

John I know what your thinking and thats exactly what I wanted from my spit engine but it aint that simple and 100hp takes alot of faffing to keep right. Just change the engine.

Chris.

:) :)

I know what you're saying Chris and there certainly is a big attraction in a light engine knocking out 150bhp without any stress and for a comparatively modest cost. Win win!

[Slimboyfat]

8955 wrote:

Thanks all.
Yes it needs to be reliable of course, it's not a race car and I don't want to have to rebuild it regularly.
What sort of power is attainable from a 1500 block with such mods?

Don't think 'power' think torque with a 1500.

Punters asking about 'power' immediately gives me the collywobbles when allied to the long stroke 1500.

If you want an engine that cruise's up hills in o/d top go for a 1500, if you want to rev it a bit go for a small crank 1300.

[Slimboyfat]

2402 wrote:

Each to there own but I've tried the tuning co. before and lost alot of cash.

Chris.

A common experiance unfortunately in the Triumph World.

What can be a fundamently easy/cheap engine to get a reliable 100bhp per litre from (in 1200, or 1300 form anyway) is spoilt by the dodgy history of the aftermarket Triumph tuning game.

As the years go by it seems to get no better, pity.

[Slimboyfat]

Remember Triumph ran 120bhp 1200 Spitfires at Lemans mostly at 7,500 rpm for 24 hours with no problems in 1965.

Engine modifications were not radical (by todays standards).

Picture courtesy of Aub Cole via his son Ray

[CHRIS211083]

Wont be too long till my Zetec SE conversion kit is tested and the how too sold. It was Quite easy, requires only one custom part (engine mounts) the rest can be bought from suppliers. It requires no chassis mods and only a small bit to the tub. It's 100bhp stock and capable of 220bhp N/a if you want that much and weighs much less than the spit unit. I'm doing it so there is another option for people rather than haveing endless issues with triumph engine tuning as I did. Time will tell if it catches on.

Chris.

[IANS]

Ive done the engine change in a Spitfire from a 1500 to a fiat twin cam  and tbh I felt the car lost a lot of character ! As Dave says a 100hp @ the flywheel  Spitfire shouldnt be that difficult or expensive ! Look at Miks Davis old race 1500 Spitfire very reliable andnot that expensive

ian

[Velocita Rosso]

3141 wrote:

Now, you have my interest because I'm also looking to up the power of my 1300 to a usable and reliable 100 horse power.

We built our own (or Philip did) and we started from scratch new/recon block,pistons etc
New/recon head and did the porting
Fitted new Moss 83 road cam,duplex timing gear and vernier adjustment
Went to rolling road at Malton(who does all the local rally/hillclimb cars) and he profiled the needles bit by bit and we went from 74 to 98 bhp
Then I fitted a 3:63 diff to a new/recon standard gearbox and overdrive and we easily kept up with the big 6`s on the 10CR running down the motorway to Reims, cruising at a steady 80/85 .
It keeps me happy  
  

[Will It Ever Run Again]

OK, 100 bhp per litre sounds like a great target and doable? The car will be a little lighter than standard so the bhp per tonne would be ample. I have no issues going to a 1300 if the performance will be better than that of a 1500. I can't be swayed to go to a non triumph engine though but I can see why people would want to do that. Those cars probably go extremely well but it's just not for me at the mo.

So are there people out there who have experienced both 1300 and 1500 who can give me some reliable comparables? I definately will be taking my car to Le Mans one day (I've always wanted to) but I don't just want a cruiser. As I say I'd love to do the odd track day (or hillclimb). My car does have o/d and it seems a 3.63:1 diff. Wheels will probably be 13" Minilites.

I just don't want to do loads of work on the 1500 engine only to find I'd have been better of starting with a 1300.

Sorry if these questions seem completely dumb to many of you but I'm new to triumph tuning.

Many thanks.

Steve

[yorkshire_spam]

Can't see you getting 100 bhp per litre, 100bhp from a 1500 no worries though.

[Clive]

100bhp/litre is full race engine with webers sort of territory.
I suspect 100bhp overall is a target for a reliable engine of either size, but each has different characteristics. If you want to rev the car then 1300, if a bit more relaxed driving on torque is your thing then a 1500.

[CHRIS211083]

100BHP at the crank. 85-90 at the wheels.

Chris.

[sparky_spit]

As people have mentioned above, it's horses for courses....  In my Mk3 Spitfire I've had the original 1300 engine, then a mildly tuned 1500 engine, then back to a 1300, and then next year it will have a 1500 in it again, fitted with a Mk3 Spitfire cam and a few other upgrades but nothing overly serious in terms of tune.

The 1300 engine is great for short events, like the night time 12 car rallies we do; like the couple of Goodwood track days I've done; etc., where the revs are kept up. However, on long events like the 10CR and HCR it gets a bit tiring driving on the rev counter all the time. I have a 3.63 diff fitted to make long motorway use bearable, but the 1300 is not suited to this and won't pull overdrive 4th up long motorway hills.

The 1500 engine is great for these long events, and can stay in overdrive 4th for most of the time, and hence is much more relaxing to drive long distances over a day or two. It still pulls well when needed but I try not to take it above 5000 rpm for too long. I'm hoping the 1500 with Mk3 cam might give me a sort of halfway between the two. We'll see if that's possible or not.

The mention of Mik Davies' race 1500 reminds me of a conversation with him a few years ago; he said that his 1500 revs to somewhere well over 7000 rpm.  I can't remember exactly what the figure is but it is astronomical considering it is using a cast iron crank, albeit balanced.  Hopefully someone else, or Mik himself, will jump in and give the true figure for this.

So it just depends what you want to do most of; for a sunny Sunday blast car go for a 1300; for long distance stuff a well sorted 1500.

[Will It Ever Run Again]

Thank you. Very interesting. I think I'll stick with the 1500 and do what I can with it.
Cheers for all the help.
Steve