Carb issue?

[lavamatrix]

Well first let me just say before I bought my 75 spitfire 1500 (2 weeks ago) I didnt so much as change oil on my cars. So I am basically an infant when it comes to cars.

So with my youth (26) comes arrogance and I thought I could just read some online posts and buy some new parts and have the car sorted easily enough. Not so my friends.

I bought my car being told that the carb was needing a rebuild/replacement. So it wasnt running. After reading up on the matter I bought a carb rebuild kit and went to work. As far as I can tell it functions as it should. Everything moves, all the holes are clear and clean. The diaphragm has no holes. It has an automatic choke on it.

I discovered that much of the coolant pipes that led to the choke were clogged up with gunk (the pipes have been rusting and disintegrating). They need to be replaced but in the mean time I just uncolgged them and cleaned them up. Most of the gaskets were fine but I replaced them anyways. So I put the carb back in and tried to start her up.  

The car starts nicely, right away.

However two problems. I am getting smoke, which is actually white/gray. And it seems to be coming from where the exhaust manifold (headers) connect to the exhaust pipes. Also the car idles at a REALLY high RPM. I adjusted the throttle cable so that it has zero tension just to see if that was the issue and still the idle is the same high level. If leave the car on it shuts off after 10 seconds.

I noticed that the vacuum advance has been disconnected, perhaps that is the issue?

Seeing how this car hasnt been running I am taking the sellers word that the carb was what was wrong.
What with a very limited bank account I cant afford a professional to tell me what is wrong. So I hope that I can, with help of course, figure this out.

Anyone have any ideas?

[lavamatrix]

I think the smoke is actually just from the coolant that spilled on the pipes evaporating.

but main problem seems to be the high rpm (2000+) at idle. Then the car shuts off after 10 seconds or less.

[drofgum]

lavamatrix,
From your description of rebuilding a single carbie I suspect you are dealing with a North American Spitfire 1500. Your high idle may be an air leak into the intake. Of course you may also have the throttle stop screw holding the throttle open too much. Try backing the idle speed screw off until it no longer holds the throtle open. If you still have a very high idle then you should look for air leaks into the inlet manifold.
The vacuum advance being disconnected won't cause much trouble, but it is better connected. If you can't connect it then at least plug the line that goes to it to eliminate the (minor)air leak it is.
Try some things and then report back to us on it; maybe someone else will recognise the trouble.
                                                                Good luck,
                                                                Paul

[lavamatrix]

Thanks Paul.

I suspect you are right about the leak. I need to put a new gasket on the manifold where it mounts to the engine as that looks very old.

But just to ask, would the leak cause the engine to shut off? That is what bothers me most. Running at 2k idle isnt ideal but if the engine cant run at even 2k that is a BIG problem.

oh and yes this is a North American Spitfire (California too).

[drofgum]

lavamatrix,
I don't think that the leak would cause the engine to shut off. Try spraying WD40 around the inlet manifold gasket area and see if it changes things. If it does then you have a leak there.
                                                                     Cheers,
                                                                     Paul

[Bainzy]

if it just shuts off without warning like a computer in a power cut would, then I'd say it's an electrical issue (eg non functioning alternator). If it slows down and splutters before dying, then the engine may be getting the wrong petrol/air mixture.

[lavamatrix]

yes it shuts off without warning. Other then it idling so high it sounds good, then all of a sudden it shuts off.

Tried spraying carb cleaner and I could see no difference, just slightly lower rpm (1900) but I attribute that to the colder start.

Also when I tried starting it this morning it didnt start right away like it had yesterday, took 3 attempts. Instead it spurted a bit then a medium-high pitch weeeeeeeeeeeing sound. It sounded (and I am as I stated far from an expert) as if some smaller moving part was stuck or fighting some sort of resistance...

Could that be the alternator? Also the battery charge seems fine, if the alternator was bad wouldnt the battery (which looks fairly new) not charge?

As far as the car shutting off could this be an exhaust issue? . As far as I know, and please correct me if I am wrong, if the exhaust doesnt flow enough the car will stall (banana in the tail pipe). I already have an order for a new Double S system but since it is coming from England.... 2 weeks seems an optimistic time table to receive it.

[drofgum]

lavamatrix,
I agree with Bainzy, your trouble with the engine shutting off sounds electrical. Check the wiring associated with the ignition. Two things that especially come to mind are the earth lead inside the dizzy, and (if you are on points) the wire that goes from the coil to the points. On the points wire check it where it passes through the side of the dizzy for internal breakage. Look for places where the wires inside the dizzy might earth themselves when there is vibration.
                                                                  Good luck,
                                                                  Paul

[Bainzy]

Looks are deceiving with batteries - even new ones can go quickly, if the car isn't run often. Mine was new when I bought the car last year, the previous owner hadn't had it in long, but about 2 months into ownership I realised it was going to have to go.

Get yourself a reprint of the little blue handbook if you don't have one already, its only 8 quid on amazon, I know you said money is tight but you will definitely need it. For example in there on page 40 is the alternator drive belt check that I'd check next, I'll type it up below:

Tension - When correctly tensioned, a total deflection of 12mm (1/2 in) should be possible by moderate hand pressure applied to the midway point of the longest belt run between the pulleys.

Adjusting - To adjust belt tension, slacken the securing bolts and move the alternator to the required position. Apply leverage as necessary to the alternator drive-end bracket only and not to any other part. To avoid damage, the lever should preferably be of wood or soft metal. Tighten the bolts and re-check the belt tension. Do not overload the alternator bearings by overtightening the drive belt.

If the belt is incorrectly tensioned, the alternator doesn't work properly and won't charge the battery.

If that solves you're problem, you're lucky as its a free fix, so try it first. Sometimes you can end up buying loads of stuff trying to track a problem down. I'd also recommend using jump leads with another car and trying to run it for more than 10 seconds to see if that helps.

[Bainzy]

2258 wrote:

Also when I tried starting it this morning it didnt start right away like it had yesterday, took 3 attempts. Instead it spurted a bit then a medium-high pitch weeeeeeeeeeeing sound. It sounded (and I am as I stated far from an expert) as if some smaller moving part was stuck or fighting some sort of resistance...

When the battery I described above was on its way out, I ended up having a similar experience. Is it like a rururrrruuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnn sound that lasts a second when you turn the key, then stops? If so, that means your engine is probably getting flooded. Take the spark plugs out and let them dry off - I'd be gobsmacked if your plugs aren't black and sooty, and possibly also smelly. Give them a quick brush off with a soft wire brush if you have one. You may need to change them (NGKs hate being flooded).

Don't worry too much, I'm 22 with barely any money to spend on my car either, and last year I didn't even know what a carburetter was. Bought my first car, my '78 Spit in October. Now thanks to books and the internet, I've had it in bits and back together again several times over, and it runs SO much better than when I got it.

[lavamatrix]

thanks for the help. after taking a look at the dizzy I am a bit confused. I think there is some sort of electronic ignition installed. I need to take pics of this mysterious little red box where the leads go to and post them so you guys can see what it is that I am talking about.

I should restate the money situation. There is money in the budget currently. However it is a hard budget and I am trying my best to leave room for the unexpected. Also I would rather learn how to fix my own problems as it seems these cars do need steady maintenance and trouble shooting.

I ordered the book you suggested. Hopefully it gets here soon!

I wish I could post a video so you could hear the sound.... maybe I will link it to youtube so you can hear it.

[lavamatrix]

here is the red box

[lavamatrix]

the dizzy which looks standard and the mystery wire.

[lavamatrix]

So not sure what that red box is for. I currently dont know what that electrical plug at the base of the engine is for (researching now) but when I was inspecting the wiring I saw that 2 of the terminals were connected to wires but one of the terminals was disconnected. There also happens to be one wire that isnt connected to anything in the area....

The curious side of me wants to plug it in to the open terminal to see what happens. The cautious side of me would like some input. I know there is no way to know what that loose wire is for but that little unit that is in the 4th picture with three terminals, what is it? and is it supposed to have each terminal linked to something? It seems to me that the lose wire must be for that terminal because there isnt any other lose wire that could connect to it.

The worse thing that could happen would be I would blow a fuse right?

**Update** wait is that the oil pressure switch? would explain why my gauge doesnt work  :) but wouldnt explain the car stalling :(

I think the belt tension may be too high, going to adjust it in the morning see if that does anything.

[Dicky Blighter]

Red box is an electronic ignition and bits in the distributor are related - as the engine starts and runs briefly then chances are it's OK.
Yes thats the oil pressure switch - not seen one with 3 terminals before though - does oil light come on when you turn on ignition then go off when engine starts? If so the one thats connected is low pressure warning light, other 2 must be for electrical pressure gauge. one will be be either a power feed or earth the other will go to the gauge. try connecting that loose wire to one and other terminal to earth and see what happens.
Have you got a picture that shows more of engine area as you seem to have lots of extra bits - probably something to do with US spec emmission controls - don't have any of that nonsense in UK on old cars.
Alternator will have nothing whatsoever to do with your cutting out - it charges the battery and car will run without alternator connected as long as there is charge in battery.
Very high tickover and then cutting out suggests fuel starvation and/or air leak on carb or manifold.

[HMaze]

(evil)
Hi lavamatrix,

Your car was original equipted with a OPUS electronic ignition system.
I think they are all defective by now.
In your case the system was replaced by an aftermarket system with optical trigger.
The loose wires could be from the OPUS system, it used a "drive resistor" which was mounted outside the distributor.
The oil pressure switch is one which also opperates the anti run on valve at your carcole canister.
In one picture it shows, that your vaccum (retard) is not connected to your distributor.
Maybe one airleak here.


Cheers,
Harry

[lavamatrix]

I ordered a new gasket and spark plugs, should get here in a week. The vacuum advance is not connected. I know this has to do with timing. I am trying to reconnect it but the pipes are missing pieces (wasnt connected when I got it). I am also moving the electric fuel pump from the firewall to the boot where it is supposed to go. The mechanical one is semi new but supposedly does not work (maybe just not connected right?) I am hoping this might be multiple small things creating one big problem (leaky gasket, timing off without vacuum advance, insufficient fuel flow with misplaced pump). Here are some more pictures. Once again many thanks for all the help  :)

[sparkytph]

ive come across oil pressure switches with 3 terminals before had one fitted on my spit till it went wrong they cut ignition circuit if you loose oil pressure that could be your problem

[junkuser]

May be an idea to remove that optically triggered electronic ignition system and revert to original points system for simplicity.

Those aftermarket optical systems don't have a good reputation but were the best available at the time.

[drofgum]

lavamatrix,
Sparkytph's remark about the oil pressure switch makes me ask: how did they bypass the switch to start and build oil pressure? It seems reasonable to wonder if that is why your car shuts down after 10 seconds.
                                                Keep at it,
                                                Paul
BTW   It is not a good idea to lay wrenches on top of the battery; it can lead to short circuits.

[lavamatrix]

So I put the electric pump in the boot and installed a pressure regulator. Connected the extra wire to the oil pressure switch. Started her up and..... same thing

No oil light comes on, I have no oil pressure gauge on the dash and the oil level seems set. When the engine shuts off / stalls the engine light comes on. Also when the key is turned on in the car the engine light is on but I assume like many cars that doesnt mean anything. Once the engine is on the engine light turns off (until the engine stops).

The alternator has been set correctly. Unless the issue is due to the dizzy, the vacuum advance, old spark plugs or leaky gasket I am not sure what to do. New spark plugs and gasket are on order, so have to wait to see if that is the issue. Working on the vacuum advance (can I just connect it directly to the carb?) and as far as the dizzy and reverting back to old points.... not sure how to go about doing it. But if I need new parts and whatnot I'd rather just go the megajolt route and not have to mess with adjusting the timing through the dizzy.

Oh and I know my work habits are horrible! I need to keep tools off the car, just not too much space in my garage.  :'(

[Dicky Blighter]

Jus to give you an idea of how much extra is on a US spec motor this is mor or less a standard uk spec apart from air filters

Looking at your pictures and judging by the amount of corrosion on manifolds fan pulley etc. that motor of yours has not run for a long time. The noise you refered to in earlier post is probably the fan belt on rusty pulleys or the fan coupling or alernator or water pump bearings. Going by the amount of rust around water pump /thermostat area  you have a bit of a leak there - is there water in the rad?

You really need to find a local enthusiast who knows what they are doing to take a look at that car, suspect you are going to have to increase you budget. To reinforce earlier posts - get it running in basic set up first, you can't fit megajolt unless you know engine works properly to start with, read your manuals and get an understanding of what things do - what you refer to as engine light is the charge light for alternator - it's doing what it should.

[lavamatrix]

Water pump is fine as far as I can tell, but will look more closely at it from now on. There is coolant in the tank (topped it off myself). Any way to check if the pump is working if the car isnt running? the coolant lines to the intake manifolds were completely clogged up with the disintegration from the pipes themselves... cleaned it out but obviously that is a temp fix as the corrosion on the pipes is extreme (which was another reason to do the new manifold for the kiehin carbs). However I wonder why would the intake manifold need to be cooled? Beyond that there is rust on many of the components as you mentioned but the body and frame, other then the firewall are rust free. I was already thinking about taking a wire wheel to the parts then putting a high heat paint on them, good idea? It was more of an aesthetic thing then functional and something I wanted to do once I had her running properly.

The car hadnt run for about 4 years. Even before that it wasnt a daily driver. The guy I bought it from said it was originally bought by his Dad for his girlfriend and she only drove it to the market yada yada (45K miles). His dad died and his girlfriend didnt want the car anymore and gave it to his son who then would take it out for a spin every once in a while until it started to have problems then it sat for 4 years more or less. Which is when I stepped in.

Being the guy I am I want to just strip it down to the engine and rebuild it all but that probably isnt a good idea since I dont know what I am doing ;) I'd love to strip away parts that I dont need. I dont have to worry about emissions tests as the car is 35 years old and is exempt. I assume that is what most of the extras on the car are about.

I currently have the time to work on it but that isnt going to last long... I might have to just dive in heads first and upgrade to the workshop manual. I dont know much now but I am smart and persistent!

thanks for all the help.

[sparky_spit]

Regarding the possibility that having the 3 wire oil sender only partially connected is stopping the engine after 10 secs; a good way to prove if this is the case or not would be to give the postive side of the ignition coil a temporary live feed.

Locate the ignition coil (alluminium cylindrical thing up on the firewall shelf, driver's side, about 2" dia and 6" long with 2 small terminals and one large one in the middle, at one end. The ignition king lead connected to the middle one goes to the distributor cap). One of the small terminals will be marked +, indicating that it is the positive terminal. This normally fed with 12v when the ignition is on. Temporarily take off any wires that are connected there. Then take a temporary wire from the + post of the battery and connect to the + terminal of the ignition coil.

Start the car and see if it makes a difference. If it does, then the issue is definitely due to electrical problems, and maybe to do with the oil pressure switch wiring as mentioned before.

BTW - to stop the engine you will need to pull the temporary wire off the + terminal of the coil, as this bypasses the 12v feed from the ignition switch.

[lancepar]

Just a thought.
Can the operation of the Service Interval Instrument (SII) be ruled out of this problem?
Back to basics.
Not relevant to the fault but when the ignition is switched on you should get the red (charge) and green (oil pressure) lamps light up on the Speedo.  When the engine is running both lamps should go out.  The engine will run with both on but it means there is a fault with one or both of the systems and needs to be rectified.
Don't leave the vacuum pipe connections open, they can be closed off, it's just an economy device
HTH
8)