Spitfire Engine and gearbox out. Now what?

[Banksy82]

4 minutes ago, glang said:

Even when fully open the thermostat limits the flow to the radiator to ensure some coolant is pushed to the heater. People remove or modify the thermostat so theres more flow to the radiator (usually as you say to try to improve cooling) but it results in less to the heater which might explain why yours hasnt worked well... 

Yes It all adds up 🙂 - I am just concerned as to why the cooling needed to be improved 🤔

[glang]

well poor cooling is very common among older vehicles and especially Triumphs. Heres some of the possible reasons:

poor heat transfer in the engine and or radiator (scale/rust), inefficient rad from damaged cooling fins, increased traffic congestion nowadays, modern fuels give hotter running, global warming giving increased air temperatures....

I personally think the original design of the cooling systems in many Triumph models wasnt very generous so a slight deterioration from any of the previous causes gives problems. The solution is to try to rectify the cause as much as possible but also include available improvements to increase the safety margin.

 

[Banksy82]

10 minutes ago, glang said:

poor heat transfer in the engine and or radiator (scale/rust)

Radiator seems pretty straight so I am thinking blockage of some kind. Wanting to take a look at the valves and tappets anyway; If I take the head off is there access to mechanically clean and add a Citric acid solution to the coolant passages in the block and the head to try and clear out any possible scale / rust or is this an awful idea 🙂  

Thanks for putting up with the stupid questions! I do appreciate it!

Karl

[glang]

Hey no stupid questions here as this is a very common problem! Many people first try a flush with a cleaning solution (different recipes recommended on here) by driving for a while and then draining and refilling the system.

I cant see that now the engine is out you can use a liquid but mechanical cleaning is quite possible. It should be pretty effective IF you can get to crud most of which will have sunk down into the lower part of the block. You might be able to break it up with a rod and then either vac it out or invert the engine.

If the block has a drain tap you could check this works now and then once back in the car do a chemical flush as described for any remaining stuff...

[standardthread]

19 hours ago, Banksy82 said:

Radiator seems pretty straight so I am thinking blockage of some kind. .....mechanically clean and add a Citric acid solution to the coolant passages in the block and the head to try and clear out any possible scale

 

You could try a warm solution of washing soda (not caustic), blocking outlets where possible

Edited September 20, 2022 by standardthread

[Banksy82]

Head is off and I have managed to remove a reasonable amount of rubbish from the coolant passages but I have come across something else…

Cylinders 2&3 show staining / wear (see image below) and none of the bores show any signs of cross hatching. 1&4 have similar vertical wear marks - all cylinders feel smooth to the touch.

I did a compression check while the engine was in the car and got 170 160 165 170 (which I thought was reasonable) and it is the centre two cylinders that show this particular issue.

There is also a lip on the thrust side at the top of the piston travel.

Question is can I simply hone the bores and fit new rings or am I in bigger trouble?😳

Haynes mention measuring wear with a piston without rings and a feeler gauge - 10thou is too much apparently. With the workshop manual giving a range of 9 thou for piston dia over the years I find myself questioning Mr Haynes (not for the first time!)

Thanks

Karl

[PeteStupps]

16 minutes ago, Banksy82 said:

There is also a lip on the thrust side at the top of the piston travel.

Question is can I simply hone the bores and fit new rings or am I in bigger trouble?😳

From what i've read, there is a chance your top compression rings will break on the lip. Even if it doesn't happen the possibility would bother me. Honing won't remove the lip either, I can tell you from experience!

That bore doesn't look great. But was the engine burning much oil, or haven't you driven it enough to know?

To be honest you've dismantled most of it now, it's tempting to say pull the engine out and get it re-bored and new pistons. But that's easy to say when it's not my time or money....

[Banksy82]

3 minutes ago, PeteStupps said:

That bore doesn't look great. But was the engine burning much oil, or haven't you driven it enough to know?

Haven’t really driven enough to know I’m afraid… 

 

6 minutes ago, PeteStupps said:

it's tempting to say pull the engine out and get it re-bored and new pistons.

I agree with you and I know this is the ‘correct’ option but not something I can really justify at the moment… 

12 minutes ago, PeteStupps said:

From what i've read, there is a chance your top compression rings will break on the lip.

Is it possible to remove pistons, clean / hone the bores and refit the current pistons / rings given compression wasn’t awful before??

[PeteStupps]

6 minutes ago, Banksy82 said:

Is it possible to remove pistons, clean / hone the bores and refit the current pistons / rings given compression wasn’t awful before??

I don't think there would be any point, and you'd be lucky to get all the pistons out without breaking any of the rings on the way past the top lip. So if now isn't the time for a full rebuild, you'd be best off putting it back together. 

It is possible that your noise is piston slap though. Might be able to see evidence of that from the bottom end, but not quite sure what you'd be looking for.

[Banksy82]

5 minutes ago, PeteStupps said:

..if now isn't the time for a full rebuild, you'd be best off putting it back together..

I’m leaning towards this… quietly button it back up and pretend I haven’t seen anything! 

At least I know what needs doing now and I can budget for a rebuild.

10 minutes ago, PeteStupps said:

It is possible that your noise is piston slap though.

Hmmm. That’s an interesting thought I hadn’t considered…

Thanks for the input!

[RobPearce]

See how much of that lip you can scrape off with a craft knife. It may be largely carbon and harmless. Otherwise, since the compressions were good, I'd be tempted to save money and just put it back together.

[standardthread]

36 minutes ago, RobPearce said:

See how much of that lip you can scrape off with a craft knife. It may be largely carbon and harmless. Otherwise, since the compressions were good, I'd be tempted to save money and just put it back together.

I would be tempted to go with Rob, but I would use the back edge of the blade to do the scraping. The lip is probably caused by the gasket (if it had the correct one on?) because it's a MkIV Spitfire.

When you get to put everything together, as an afterthought about removing the S,H,1,T from your cooling system, I have our central heating to flush out, for that I'm using Fernox F3, one bottle cleans 100 litres. It's for use in ferrous and non ferrous systems. Try a drop of that, it's a heck of a lot cheaper than stuff sold to clean car radiators.

I've haven't gone down the route of treating the system afterwards but I'm going to contact Fernox to see if their F1 treatment can be used with antifreeze (my car needs doing too).

Then 'run the engine in' using quality oil, it looks like the cowboy you got the car from did a few bodge jobs. I would think the actual mileage is 175k, or even replace the one with a  two?

Edited September 21, 2022 by standardthread

[Banksy82]

1 hour ago, RobPearce said:

See how much of that lip you can scrape off with a craft knife. It may be largely carbon and harmless. Otherwise, since the compressions were good, I'd be tempted to save money and just put it back together.

Carbon ring extends approx 1/4" into the bore (to the first compression ring I imagine). Having cleaned this off there is still a ridge that can be caught with a fingernail, larger on the cam side and the rear. Bore at this unmarked point is 2.902 and below the ridge 2.905 (Take these as very approx, probably +/- 0.002, I don't have an internal mic small enough or a snap gauge big enough so we are talking internal spring callipers and an external mic!)

Mr Haynes reckons over 0.006 wear is too much, I am pretty close to that but probably under so I think I will leave well alone and it will have to do for now!

Many thanks for the input.

[Banksy82]

1 hour ago, standardthread said:

Fernox F3, one bottle cleans 100 litres. It's for use in ferrous and non ferrous systems. Try a drop of that, it's a heck of a lot cheaper than stuff sold to clean car radiators.

Thanks - I'll look into that!

 

1 hour ago, standardthread said:

Then 'run the engine in' using quality oil..

What precautions would you take to 'run in' I will reassemble with some assembly lube on the big end main and cam bearings along with cam lobes and tappet faces, Lightly oil bores with engine oil and before attempting a start I'm tempted to run the oil pump with a drill to get some pressure and flow up to the rockers.

1 hour ago, standardthread said:

it looks like the cowboy you got the car from did a few bodge jobs. I would think the actual mileage is 175k, or even replace the one with a  two?

Always a good chance that the clock has gone 'round. In fairness to the chap I bought the car off he didn't put many miles on it in his ownership, less than a thousand per year looking at the paperwork (9 years I think) and just did basic maintenance.  The previous chap had done some more detailed (bodge) work... The joys of multi owner vehicles! 😄

[PeteStupps]

3 hours ago, Banksy82 said:

What precautions would you take to 'run in' I will reassemble with some assembly lube on the big end main and cam bearings along with cam lobes and tappet faces

You've not had the cam out have you? Hard to get oil onto the cam bearings with shaft in situ. Personally I wouldn't use assembly lube in this case, I'd put a smear of clean engine oil on the main and big ends, then when back together spin the engine over with the plugs out to get oil pressure. I've done the drill on the oil pump drive in the past, and am not convinced it's worth the hassle. By the time you've got the distributor back on the oil will have all drained back into the sump.

But that's just me.

[Banksy82]

11 minutes ago, PeteStupps said:

You've not had the cam out have you?

Yep, removed cam to get a look at some sticky / pitted followers that wouldn’t come out from above. 

I was planning on replacing pitted tappets but looking at the state of the rest of the engine I think it will get new thrust washers and bearings and everything else will just get a clean to remove deposits so they can move freely and be put back for another day.

At least the clutch will be easy to replace now!

17 minutes ago, PeteStupps said:

I've done the drill on the oil pump drive in the past, and am not convinced it's worth the hassle. By the time you've got the distributor back on the oil will have all drained back into the sump.

A fair point! Thanks.

[PeteStupps]

1 hour ago, Banksy82 said:

Yep, removed cam to get a look at some sticky / pitted followers that wouldn’t come out from above

Oh I see, sorry I missed that bit. If the followers or cam lobes are pitted I'd be very reluctant to put them back in. Have you got any photos?

[Banksy82]

23 minutes ago, PeteStupps said:

Oh I see, sorry I missed that bit.

I hadn't mentioned it yet, I haven't mentioned the pitting on pistons 2 & 3 yet either!😁  still reeling from the state of the cylinders.
 

28 minutes ago, PeteStupps said:

Oh I see, sorry I missed that bit. If the followers or cam lobes are pitted I'd be very reluctant to put them back in. Have you got any photos?

I should be able to get out to the workshop tonight or tomorrow for photos.

Honestly now thinking it might be best to obtain a second block for rebuild and take my time - I can then enjoy the remaining life of this engine in the car while I wait!

[standardthread]

I'm with Pete, turn the engine over without plugs to get oil in the bearings before it's fired up.

As for 'running in' no labouring in low gear, quickly through the gears and low maximum speed. I ran in the only brand new modern car I've owned despite manufacturers saying it wasn't necessary.

I was going to suggest picking a second engine up to give you options. They are about, I have two Herald blocks that no one wants. A month or so ago someone on the forum had bought a 1500 Spitfire for the O/D and a few bits, if you want to go for a 1500 the block and all fittings on it are identical to yours, including exhaust if you change manifolds, so you could message them? It shouldn't affect tax status etc. Doing that would give you the chance to sort this engine out at your leisure.

[Banksy82]

19 minutes ago, standardthread said:

...if you want to go for a 1500 the block and all fittings on it are identical to yours, including exhaust if you change manifolds, so you could message them? It shouldn't affect tax status etc. Doing that would give you the chance to sort this engine out at your leisure.

I have done a little cursory research and it looks like the MKIII or MKIV would be a better fit as they share the same inlet and exhaust manifold, HS2 Carbs, Clutch and tacho drive (from the delco dizzy) all of which I can switch over from mine...

With that in mind and given I wouldn't mind a small increase in power which if rebuilding I imagine wouldn't add too much to the cost I believe the MKIII block is preferred for this?

Much to think about....

[Banksy82]

3 hours ago, PeteStupps said:

Have you got any photos?

See below… only two lobes on the cam are pitted - some minor marking on the edges of two others - and 3 tappets show concerning marks…

[standardthread]

2 hours ago, Banksy82 said:

I have done a little cursory research and it looks like the MKIII or MKIV would be a better fit as they share the same inlet and exhaust manifold, HS2 Carbs, Clutch and tacho drive (from the delco dizzy) all of which I can switch over from mine...

With that in mind and given I wouldn't mind a small increase in power which if rebuilding I imagine wouldn't add too much to the cost I believe the MKIII block is preferred for this?

Much to think about....

Unless I'm totally wrong the MkIII is identical to the Herald 13/60?

The clutch could be overcome by changing over the flywheel, unless your present clutch is near scrap point?

As for the dizzy, I fitted an identical tacho dizzy to my 13/60 saloon and drove it for thousands of miles before I dismantled it without issue.

Carbs and manifold are again a straight swop, just a new manifold/head gasket. My last 1300 Dolomite basically a MkIV Spitfire engine but different numbering sequence, had a 1500 manifold and twin HS4's fitted, (previous owner), car now replaced by another 1300 Dolomite but before doing so changed the box to a 1500 Spitfire (identical to nearly all Dolomites).

Just to rub salt in to the wound, when we re-built our Herald 13/60 estate I fitted it with twin 1 1/4" Strombergs, Mk!V O/D box and a brand new Mk!V short block with 13/60 head, the block cost me £40 from a Triumph dealer! And the car did 40+k without any issue before I took it off the road.

Triumphs were built to last, and, from my nearly 50 years of playing with them, built to play about with.

Edited September 21, 2022 by standardthread

[Banksy82]

4 minutes ago, standardthread said:

Triumphs were built to last, and, from my nearly 50 years of playing with them, built to play about with.

Without doubt! When looking around at different options it seems every possible combination has been shoehorned together. My concern with the 1500 was simply the carbs - twin HS4s can get a little expensive (considering I already have a perfectly serviceable (forshadowing??) set of HS2s that I think may be a little restrictive on the 1500).

10 minutes ago, standardthread said:

As for the dizzy, I fitted an identical tacho dizzy to my 13/60 saloon and drove it for thousands of miles before I dismantled it without issue.

I'm an idiot! Of course the older ancillaries will fit, likewise with the manifolds. 

14 minutes ago, standardthread said:

The clutch could be overcome by changing over the flywheel, unless your present clutch is near scrap point?

It is my understanding that the 1500 used different flywheel hardware and I don't fancy drilling out my flywheel - but I could be very easily wrong on this!

Regardless there seem to be plenty of options about I just need to work out which would suit me best...

I understand the 1300 are happier to rev higher and I have been known to explore the higher numbers on the rev counter occasionally.

[standardthread]

22 minutes ago, Banksy82 said:

It is my understanding that the 1500 used different flywheel hardware and I don't fancy drilling out my flywheel - but I could be very easily wrong on this!

Karl,

Got it slightly wrong, I think. The difference between the 1500 and MkIV clutch is the gearbox fitted to it, the 1500's have single rail 20 spline boxes, as do all Dolomites apart from the early versions, they had 10 spline three rail boxes. The Mk!V (and all Herald and Standards) have 10 spline 6 1/4" driven plates and 3 rail boxes. The Dolomite Club site has much debate on the subject.

So if you got a 1500 Spitfire engine, unless it has been stripped, would have carbs and clutch, with just driven plate to switch over? (I stand to be corrected), but if not, a change of flywheel with correct driven plate.

I prefer 3 rail boxes, and if the box in my Dolomite went I may be tempted to switch back to a 3 rail Herald box.

HS4's and manifolds are available, I have a refurbished pair that I posted on here a few months ago, no I'm not trying to sell you them.

Steve

[PeteStupps]

My inexpert opinion is that you'd be better off with a new (or good old) cam and new followers. Once they've pitted they quickly wear through as the hardened surface is compromised, and the rough surfaces are major stress raisers. Others might say different though.

There isn't really that much difference between the mk3 and mkIV engines, but the mk3 is more desirable and more expensive, because of the lighter crank and peppy camshaft with cam bearings. However they have slightly smaller inlet valves, so you could get a mk3 profile cam and new followers in your existing block. Then buy a cheap spare mkIV engine to rebuild and just put that cam in it when the time comes. Canley Classics do the mk3 profile with bigger journals to fit without bearings in the block: https://canleyclassics.com/?product=camshafts

I put one of these in my 1300fwd and was pleased with it.

Alternatively i've seen mk3 engines selling for about £200 lately on ebay. But they're bound to need crank and/or bore machining.