Spitfire Engine and gearbox out. Now what?

[Banksy82]

34 minutes ago, glang said:

My WS manual says 6 - 14 thou acceptable but 6 - 8 thou recommended

Thank you - I am going to owe a few people a beer when this is over!

[standardthread]

3 hours ago, glang said:

My WS manual says 6 - 14 thou acceptable but 6 - 8 thou recommended

I've checked two official Triumph workshop manuals, one for the Standard 10 and the other for the Triumph Herald (same basic blocks as the Spitfire), both quote the crank end float at 4 to 6 thou.

 

6 hours ago, Banksy82 said:

Having had a look around the clutch release bearing carrier was not attached to the bell housing at all - no pin, no bolt, nothing. I am now wondering if my noise at idle is usual valve train noise and it was the clutch bearing carrier vibrating at speed.... 

It could be that the release bearing carrier and release arm having been flapping in the wind. They do make a racket, I had the nose on the bell housing fracture so think that would make a similar noise, basically a tin box of spanners.

[glang]

Think the end play is all a bit academic really as by my calculation the best Banksy can achieve is +15 and +15 on top of 91 thou (standard thrust size in my WSM) which with a bit of luck should give him around 7 thou float🤞

[Dave Clasper]

20 hours ago, glang said:

My Vitesse manual which has the same bearings dimensions says big end clearance should be between 1 and 2.7 thou.

Wow, certainly not an expert on this, though, 2.7 thou, seems a lot.

No wonder there can be start up rattle/knock and it's not necessarily a problem I understand?

[Banksy82]

29 minutes ago, glang said:

Think the end play is all a bit academic really as by my calculation the best Banksy can achieve is +15 and +15 on top of 91 thou (standard thrust size in my WSM) which with a bit of luck should give him around 7 thou float🤞

You are absolutely correct. I just wanted to know which one to cross out! 😁

have done some maths...! One of my standards (still fitted) mics up @ .094 (incidentally i have seen this value elsewhere although i can't find it again for the life of me) If this is correct then two .015s only give me 0.001 end float, two .010s .011 and a mix of .015 and .010 will give me .006

Only thing to do is to buy both sets and try!

[Banksy82]

1 hour ago, standardthread said:

It could be that the release bearing carrier and release arm having been flapping in the wind. They do make a racket, I had the nose on the bell housing fracture so think that would make a similar noise, basically a tin box of spanners.

Hopefully this will turn out to be true. i can't see anything else that would cause the noises. Looking at the cam from below there is a little pitting on a couple of the lobes but nothing that would suggest the noise I am hearing. I will have the followers out to check as some weren't spinning when running but I believe there to be a quality issue with some of the aftermarket replacements too! 

All a bit of a minefield, very grateful for the input on here!

[glang]

37 minutes ago, Dave Clasper said:

Wow, certainly not an expert on this, though, 2.7 thou, seems a lot.

No wonder there can be start up rattle/knock and it's not necessarily a problem I understand?

Dont forget theres got to be an oil flow from the bearing to cool it so you need a good oil pump plus sufficient clearance for the oil to get out at the correct flow rate....

[Dave Clasper]

23 hours ago, glang said:

Dont forget theres got to be an oil flow from the bearing to cool it so you need a good oil pump plus sufficient clearance for the oil to get out at the correct flow rate....

That's interesting Glang, never thought of that. So in theory if you just changed the bearings, thinking that's a good thing, if your pump not doing it's thing, then maybe not good?. I'm probably over thinking this anyway?

I think I'll just leave alone with my start up clatter (even some noise after running, if left only a couple of hours), though I do crank over without choke whatever situation, until oil light goes out to avoid this nowadays.

Apart from the oil pressure gauge dropping a bit (almost kind of overnight !) a few years ago, it has remained pretty constant, so nothing drastic happening, I guess.  

Edited September 18, 2022 by Dave Clasper

[glang]

Yes definitely you could have very good oil pressure but if the bearing clearances are too tight you risk them overheating because of insufficient oil flow and being white metal their failure temperature isnt very high...

[sparky_spit]

Yes, the main and big-end bearing clearances quoted do look a bit scarily large, but they are correct and not unusual. The Clevite technical data book also quotes similar clearances for their bearing shells in all sorts of automotive crankshaft applications and I doubt a company such as them would issue duff info.

[Banksy82]

Does anybody have any info or preference on the standard vs trimetal bearing options from Paddocks? Both big end and main.

Any input appreciated!

Karl

[glang]

Many will say trimetal and even that you should try to find Vandervell originals which isnt so easy these days and of course that pushes up the price a lot. I did some reading online and its not quite as simple as bimetal (these werent available back in the day) isnt as good as trimetals as each have pros and cons.

One of the useful points with trimetal is that the copper underlayer allows you to judge quite easily when they are worn while without this the metal colour is the same all the way through.

However bimetals have some advantages that are quite desirable for our applications and those along with the lower price persuaded me to use them in my Vitesse. Its still early days (another factor might be the mileage youre going to do) but all good at the moment.

The make you use is a much more subjective decision but I went for Paddocks and fitted an uprated oil pump at the same time.

[yorkshire_spam]

I used Glacier/Glyco bearings for my rebuild on the recommendation of the engineers who did the block and crank work for me. 

[glang]

Were they bi or tri? I presume manufacturers do both types in their ranges...

Think moderns are all bimetal these days but I could be wrong😯

[yorkshire_spam]

3 hours ago, glang said:

Were they bi or tri? I presume manufacturers do both types in their ranges...

Think moderns are all bimetal these days but I could be wrong😯

 suspect bi metal, but no idea and can't find anything clear online that clarifies what they were. I figured if it's good enough for engineers and good enough for a modern (glacier/glyco/federal mogul supply OE) then it'll do for what I need.

[glang]

If I remember right I think it said bimetal used aluminium and were good at absorbing impurities in oil and working with misalignment but lower on longevity than tri-metals.... 

[Banksy82]

14 minutes ago, glang said:

If I remember right I think it said bimetal used aluminium and were good at absorbing impurities in oil and working with misalignment but lower on longevity than tri-metals.... 

This sounds like the sort of properties a possibly poorly ground crank and a 50 year old block might need...

[Clive]

2 minutes ago, Banksy82 said:

This sounds like the sort of properties a possibly poorly ground crank and a 50 year old block might need...

Having used both, I would say the bimetal may well be the better choice on a refresh rather than everything re-machined. But my results are only a few rebuilds. So not comprehensive. 

[Banksy82]

4 hours ago, Clive said:

Having used both, I would say the bimetal may well be the better choice on a refresh rather than everything re-machined. But my results are only a few rebuilds. So not comprehensive. 

Thanks, I think I will go with the standard. I’ll give paddocks a ring to check what the brand is that they are carrying at the moment and do some digging as I have heard that some of them have been known to delaminate!

[Banksy82]

Just had the thermostat housing off to find a previous owner has deliberately torn the guts out of the ‘stat.

When I first drove the car the temp gauge was very low so I tested and replaced the sender. Temp would then get to 1/2 if idling for a while but not much more than a quarter when driving… now I know why.

I presume this was done to combat a overheating issue so I am now tempted to have the head off to inspect the coolant passages. Heater in the car was also poor but I put this down to a clogged valve which I have experienced before.

Is this a terrible idea?

Thanks.

Karl.

[yorkshire_spam]

Wide or narrow rad? On the 1500 the narrow rad is "marginal" (to say the least)

Check the rad condition, flush the coolant system and fit a good branded stat and see how it goes?

[Banksy82]

1 minute ago, yorkshire_spam said:

Wide or narrow rad? On the 1500 the narrow rad is "marginal" (to say the least)

Check the rad condition, flush the coolant system and fit a good branded stat and see how it goes?

Narrow Rad. It is a '73 MKIV. Worst engine of the lot 😁.

Thing is with the engine already out of the car I figured this is a good time. I also had slightly spread compression and thought maybe I could lap the valves while I was at it? 

Additionally I had a couple of push rods not spinning so I presume damaged tappets - (I believe the head has to come off to get to these?)

Don't want to get into anything pointless and expensive (I understand removing pistons requires new rings) but for the cost of a head gasket I thought this might be worthwhile?

 

[standardthread]

9 minutes ago, Banksy82 said:

Additionally I had a couple of push rods not spinning so I presume damaged tappets - (I believe the head has to come off to get to these?)

 

 

Before you take the head off you can try to shape a cone onto a piece of dowel and push that down in to the tappet to grab it and lift it out. About 1/2" diameter.

How many miles are on the clock?

[glang]

Even when fully open the thermostat limits the flow to the radiator to ensure some coolant is pushed to the heater. People remove or modify the thermostat so theres more flow to the radiator (usually as you say to try to improve cooling) but it results in less to the heater which might explain why yours hasnt worked well... 

[Banksy82]

5 minutes ago, standardthread said:

Before you take the head off you can try to shape a cone onto a piece of dowel and push that down in to the tappet to grab it and lift it out. About 1/2" diameter.

How many miles are on the clock?

75k displayed on the clock. I have read in a few places that the tappets won't make it past the head gasket to come out of the top?  I have just thought though if the camshaft comes out they should come out from below?