restart Mk2 Pi ignition fail

[frenchiemk2]

HI,

I bought this non runner 2.5pi french car more than 1 year ago "head off due to presumely gasket fail". The car was stopped for 15 years inside a closed and ventilated garage you can follow the work on here :  https://www.clubtriumph.co.uk/forums/topic/2510-my-1st-ever-triumph-mk2-2500pi/page/5/#comment-195593

Now i have fuel... but no spark at all and got worse since last saturday :

 

1. no spark (plugs new, electronic module in distributor, rotor arm... all new)🤔
2. no 12v to the ignition coil (new heavy duty)🤔
3. and when trying to spot the problem... new issue : no more swicth ignition! 😤

Formerly, i had dasboard  lights on key contact, fuel pump engaged, engine rotating... there's 12v and good earth 

Now nothing on the switch, and clock watch ticking but not all the time (LOL 😅 joke)...

So, could it all be in cause that switch key module ? i know it can be replaced "easily".

Any other possibilities?

Thanks for your help/advice.

[RobPearce]

It could be the ignition switch but it could equally be the battery or a broken wire or a bad contact. Time to get the multimeter on it and see how far the 12V gets.

[frenchiemk2]

tried again today, as i connected the all fuel line.

Nothing new, 

Pump turning and getting the fuel in pression

clock ticking and that's all

2 batteries (12.5v each), no change

just 1 second i had the ignition switch red light, but gone as far it came.

 

So there's an electric problem, but it's not the battery.

It seems rhere's no fuse for that so can't be the problem. 

🙄

[RobPearce]

Check the harness connections, particularly around the steering column area, and the condition of the harness in general. It sounds like there's a break somewhere in the ignition circuit.

[Matt306]

Clearly an electrical problem, white is usually the switched live .  Looking at the back of your alternator on the picture the brown wires aren't covered in loom tape, no real issue with that but they look like they have been over heated. Are they feeling in flexible and hard?  I think the ignition light needs a connection to the alternator to work as its the exciter wire.

Check the wiring to the coil as I am pretty sure Triumph didn't use a red wire which means if its been extended or replaced its spliced into the loom somewhere, if it with some spade terminals i would consider using solder and heat shrink for a more permanent solution.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Matt306

[Matt306]

I would also consider moving your air intake forward of the radiator as you will be sucking in hot air in summer months this will effect the running of the car particularly in slow moving traffic. One for the future though.

[frenchiemk2]

2 hours ago, Matt306 said:

I would also consider moving your air intake forward of the radiator as you will be sucking in hot air in summer months this will effect the running of the car particularly in slow moving traffic. One for the future though.

Only for the restart period. I'll put the genuine box and filter later 

[Matt306]

Yep you will get some heat soak on a restart also in slow moving traffic.

You can use your PI setup and mod it with a Speeduino set up this will allow you to get rid of coil and dizzy and allow the car to have fully programmable ignition and fuelling.   Depends how original you want it, but the benefits of modern ignition and fuelling will be night and day.

[frenchiemk2]

3 hours ago, Matt306 said:

Clearly an electrical problem, white is usually the switched live .  Looking at the back of your alternator on the picture the brown wires aren't covered in loom tape, no real issue with that but they look like they have been over heated. Are they feeling in flexible and hard?  I think the ignition light needs a connection to the alternator to work as its the exciter wire.

Check the wiring to the coil as I am pretty sure Triumph didn't use a red wire which means if its been extended or replaced its spliced into the loom somewhere, if it with some spade terminals i would consider using solder and heat shrink for a more permanent solution.

You can read the hole story here MAIN THREAD

As the electric distributor was a mess i put a Petronix electronic ignitor in, that's why black a red wire, also put a new coil.

area 1 : only 2 wires, is that OK?

Area 2 : on one side 1 brown and 1 brown/yellow but no wires at the other side?

 

[frenchiemk2]

3 hours ago, Matt306 said:

Yep you will get some heat soak on a restart also in slow moving traffic.

You can use your PI setup and mod it with a Speeduino set up this will allow you to get rid of coil and dizzy and allow the car to have fully programmable ignition and fuelling.   Depends how original you want it, but the benefits of modern ignition and fuelling will be night and day.

The benefits i'd expect now is a runner because i never drove this car. 😄 I got it with the head dismanteled, stored for more than a decade. So in the first step, i'd like to enjoy it and give me time on 2 other projects (Audi). But you're welcome for any link for a "simple" setup.

[Matt306]

1 hour ago, frenchiemk2 said:

You can read the hole story here MAIN THREAD

As the electric distributor was a mess i put a Petronix electronic ignitor in, that's why black a red wire, also put a new coil.

area 1 : only 2 wires, is that OK?

Area 2 : on one side 1 brown and 1 brown/yellow but no wires at the other side?

 

I guess that is a Lucas A127 alternator that wire will get hot very quickly when you have all the lights and heater and other stuff on. Usually three wires two thicker ones for charging the battery and a smaller thin exciter wire, usually in a plug socket those wires are live I think.

As previously mentioned I would be checking back ignition on then checking the wiring. Get a multimeter, a usual good place to start is where the loom has been cut into where there is those horrid blue connectors which cut through the wiring insulation for a connection (usually ends up in broken wires).

 

It will be a slow process... get a wiring diagram get it straight in your head then start your checking.

[RobPearce]

2 hours ago, Matt306 said:

I guess that is a Lucas A127 alternator that wire will get hot very quickly when you have all the lights and heater and other stuff on.

That depends on the condition of the wire - it may be fine if it's good, but it looks a bit tired so doubling it up would certainly do no harm. But that's a job for later, we need to get this baby running first!

The alternator is irrelevant for now apart from the question of why the charge warning light no longer comes on. That could be because the thin wire has fallen off the alternator, or the brushes are dead, or similar. Check whether there's 12V on that thin wire, unplugged from the alternator, with the ignition switch on. If there is, the alternator end is the problem with that light and we can discount it from our diagnosis of the non-starting. If not, either the bulb's blown or it's not getting power, and that may help narrow down the fault.

Check the voltage on the coil, as Matt said, and on the various terminals of the ignition switch (they're just about accessible with the cowl removed).

The odd thing is that the fuel pump powers up. If the coil isn't getting power, the fault must be after the ignition switch, somewhere in the loom.

[Nick Jones]

35 minutes ago, RobPearce said:

The odd thing is that the fuel pump powers up.

This.... is an important clue.  Possibly the fuel pump wiring has been altered and this alteration may also be responsible for the lack of ignition.  Regret that I no longer have a Mk2 WSM or wiring diagram but I would be chicking (with multimeter or 12v test lamp) whether you get power to the oil pressure switch, alternator exciter wire (as Rob  has already touched on) and coil +ve terminal.  If there is power to the oil light and  alternator (note that if the warning bulbs in the dash are blow, there won't be) but not the coil, it's just possible that there's a problem with the ballast resistor wiring.  You don't want the ballast resistor in circuit with the Pertronix as it wants 12v not 6v.  Ignition switch controlled, non-fused power wires are white.  Wiring from the ballast  resistor is white with a yellow stripe IIRC....  I'm afraid I can't remember where the fuel pump wiring comes off as standard, but there should be an inertia cut-off switch (grey plastic cylinder in rear LH corner of the engine bay on RHD car) and given that there is a Bosch pump fitted, someone may well have added a relay (good idea if done right!)

Bon Chance!

Nick

[Matt306]

1 hour ago, RobPearce said:

That depends on the condition of the wire - it may be fine if it's good, but it looks a bit tired so doubling it up would certainly do no harm. But that's a job for later, we need to get this baby running first!

The alternator is irrelevant for now apart from the question of why the charge warning light no longer comes on. That could be because the thin wire has fallen off the alternator, or the brushes are dead, or similar. Check whether there's 12V on that thin wire, unplugged from the alternator, with the ignition switch on. If there is, the alternator end is the problem with that light and we can discount it from our diagnosis of the non-starting. If not, either the bulb's blown or it's not getting power, and that may help narrow down the fault.

Check the voltage on the coil, as Matt said, and on the various terminals of the ignition switch (they're just about accessible with the cowl removed).

The odd thing is that the fuel pump powers up. If the coil isn't getting power, the fault must be after the ignition switch, somewhere in the loom.

Rob totally agree this won't stop a spark but shouldn't there be two charge wires from the alternator? That one wire and missing plug just suggest messrs bodgett&scarper have been at the wiring loom.

[RobPearce]

10 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

You don't want the ballast resistor in circuit with the Pertronix as it wants 12v not 6v. 

That could be misread - as has been discussed on another thread these last couple of days, Pertronix works just fine with a ballasted coil but the unit itself needs 12V, so if you have a ballast system, don't connect the Pertronix supply to the coil, take it to the proper (white) ign-sw-live circuit.

[RobPearce]

10 hours ago, Matt306 said:

Rob totally agree this won't stop a spark but shouldn't there be two charge wires from the alternator? That one wire and missing plug just suggest messrs bodgett&scarper have been at the wiring loom.

The post-facelift wiring diagram shows two wires in parallel, nice and simple. The pre-facelift ones mostly had two wires but one went only to the solenoid and the other to a distribution block. Except for very early Mk2 PIs which carried over the Mk1's 15ACR alternator, with only one big fat brown wire but five connections in total. Those would not have had the familiar plastic plug.

Looking at the photo again, I'm slightly wondering whether this is actually one of those very early cars. There seem to be too many wires in that area. I want to get my paws in there and identify every single one of them so I know what's going on.

[frenchiemk2]

OK, i realized yesterday that i did not remove or bypass the ballast resistor 😕 . Now the Petronic ignition might be burnt.

Since yesterday, the fuel pump stopped running. Today nothing happened at the key (batteries OK).

 

And yes there'a fuse and a relay at the back of the car.

Now, i took 2 pics to show the detail of the wires I hope you can see what's wrong (i took the green to pin onto the water temp on the waterpump housing, is it correct?)/

1st pic, you can spot the 2 wires matching nothing

2nd pic, details of the wires nearby the alternator

[RobPearce]

Is the connector in picture 1 a three-way with the brown/yellow wire connecting two of them? If so, you have an early car with the loom for a 15ACR which has been hacked around converted to suit a later 17ACR type alternator. To complete that job properly, to Matt's satisfaction, you should move the brown wire from that connector to the third terminal of the alternator (and ideally replace the three individual Lucar connectors with the later type alternator connector). Mind you, it's only a "normal size" wire so doing that doesn't give the full benefit Matt would like.

The green wire going to the temperature sender is correct if - and only if - it's actually green with a blue tracer. However, emerging from the loom there and having a black sleeve makes it a good candidate.

What actual colour is the wire to the coil +ve? It looks yellow in that photo; you want a plain white one. Have you checked the voltage on it?

[frenchiemk2]

1 hour ago, RobPearce said:

Is the connector in picture 1 a three-way with the brown/yellow wire connecting two of them? The connector is only this side, no interface connector. So i have 1 brown to none + 1 brown/yellow loop to none and a former brown? cut to none

If so, you have an early car with the loom for a 15ACR which has been hacked around converted to suit a later 17ACR type alternator. To complete that job properly, to Matt's satisfaction, you should move the brown wire from that connector to the third terminal of the alternator (and ideally replace the three individual Lucar connectors with the later type alternator connector). Mind you, it's only a "normal size" wire so doing that doesn't give the full benefit Matt would like. OK, any link to a picture of that connector? Is there a sign on the alternator no to mistake?

The green wire going to the temperature sender is correct if - and only if - it's actually green with a blue tracer. However, emerging from the loom there and having a black sleeve makes it a good candidate. OK i'll check, but seems to be correct

What actual colour is the wire to the coil +ve? It looks yellow in that photo; you want a plain white one. Have you checked the voltage on it? Must check this too

 

 

[RobPearce]

3 hours ago, frenchiemk2 said:

OK, any link to a picture of that connector? Is there a sign on the alternator no to mistake?

If your alternator has three spades - two large, one medium - in a row, then the connector you want is almost certainly this one (also available on eBay or elsewhere)

[frenchiemk2]

Thanks all for your help.

SUMMARY

Is the connector in picture 1 a three-way with the brown/yellow wire connecting two of them? The connector is only this side, no interface connector. So i have 1 brown to none + 1 brown/yellow loop to none and a former brown? cut to none

If so, you have an early car with the loom for a 15ACR which has been hacked around converted to suit a later 17ACR type alternator. To complete that job properly, to Matt's satisfaction, you should move the brown wire from that connector to the third terminal of the alternator (and ideally replace the three individual Lucar connectors with the later type alternator connector). Mind you, it's only a "normal size" wire so doing that doesn't give the full benefit Matt would like. OK, it's a 72 PI french reg. Thanks for links, it's a 3 pins 2 large/1 small

What actual colour is the wire to the coil +ve? It looks yellow in that photo; you want a plain white one. Have you checked the voltage on it? After check, it's a white/yellow to the + of the coil.

+ the wires that were connected to the ballast were white/grey to White/yellow X 2 as seen in picture

 

[RobPearce]

19 minutes ago, frenchiemk2 said:

What actual colour is the wire to the coil +ve? It looks yellow in that photo; you want a plain white one. Have you checked the voltage on it? After check, it's a white/yellow to the + of the coil.

+ the wires that were connected to the ballast were white/grey to White/yellow X 2 as seen in picture

OK, that's not going to be helping. The white/yellow (actually shown as white/orange in the book) wire goes to the ballast resistor and the starter solenoid. If you've disconnected the resistor then it's not live. The white/grey wire should be connected to the coil +ve if it's a 3ohm coil, or you should re-connect the ballast resistor if it's a 1.5ohm coil.

Either way, you cannot connect the EI unit supply to the coil. Your car has a series-driven tacho, which is why the white/grey is not a plain white. The EI supply must connect to a true white (direct off the ignition switch) wire.

[frenchiemk2]

As a reminder i have a Petronix ignitor LU-166A which may work with my actual hi perf coil Petronix40001 (which is 1.5 ohm).

So if i get it clearly the ignitor may work with the ballast plus the coil but the wires were wrong before i got those Petronix. (I did not modify any wire before or during the processes).

What i recently did wrong yesterday was suppressing the ballast. I have a new one for replacement so i'll replace it.

I cut the black tape on top harness and what i see is : white/grey to ballast to white/yellow dual (1 to the coil and one back to harness). Maybe there's the problem.

What i read from you is that i should get signal from that white/grey to the ballast and then to the coil + and leave this single white/yellow.

 

[RobPearce]

If it's a 1.5ohm coil then it should have the ballast resistor. The white/grey goes to one end of that and the dual white/yellow to the other. One of those white/yellow wires goes to the coil +ve, the other disappears into the harness (and goes to the additional terminal on the starter solenoid). That's all as per the original wiring and should remain so.

The problem is that the Pertronix instructions are written for a 3ohm, non-ballast coil with a parallel-connected tacho, and they blithely assume that the coil +ve is a convenient local "pure white" (i.e. direct to the ignition switch) connection. It is not, on your car. Therefore the Pertronix instructions are wrong and you need to move that red wire off the coil, to a proper white wire. There aren't many of those to hand, unfortunately. The inertia switch and the fuse box are the best candidates.

[frenchiemk2]

Ok. The former wiring was correct to the + except the red coming from E.I.

Maybe connect like fig B but there's no large white from harness to the ballast. So may i try directly to any large white from harness?

I will do this mods maybe after chistmas times because mom and dad need care. So i won't be around my Pi for a while.

Thanks a lot.