restart Mk2 Pi ignition fail

[RobPearce]

2 hours ago, frenchiemk2 said:

Maybe connect like fig B but there's no large white from harness to the ballast. So may i try directly to any large white from harness?

Actually you need fig C, which they don't include. It's like B in that the red wire goes to the ignition switch, but the grey wire to the ballast does not, so you need to find a white wire somewhere else.

[frenchiemk2]

Thanks a lot. I'll figure out the C option when i'm back.

 

 

[Matt306]

Good luck with it let us know how you get on

[frenchiemk2]

Alright guys.

Today i had time, weather and energy to have a look.

I put the connector on the alternator (not put the 3rd middle brown one for now as i'm not sure why it should or not be connected there).

I tried to get 1 plain white but there's not any.

So i started with the new ballast resistor. At one side i connected the white/grey + red to EI and at the other side, i connected directly to + coil.

There i have 9 volts on white/grey and 4.6 volts on the other side.

I have 3 lights on dash and starter and fuel pump.

If i remember, i had that white/yellow that should or not be connected to the black actual (replace) at the upper ballast connector?

Alone at home i can't check if there's spark or not but as i don't have fuel neither, i'm going to renew it first to give it all chances to crank 

[RobPearce]

40 minutes ago, frenchiemk2 said:

If i remember, i had that white/yellow that should or not be connected to the black actual (replace) at the upper ballast connector?

That white/yellow should be connected to your new black wire (ballast to coil). In fact, the white/yellow has two lucar connectors on it, which are intended to go to the coil and the ballast, thus replacing the new black wire. That plays no part in normal running but assists with starting, so worth doing.

I think you may have trouble with the EI's red wire connecting to the white/grey. That's not a true "live" (ignition switched, the white circuit) but instead comes through the tacho. Wiring it like that will upset either the EI unit or the tacho, but I'm not sure which.

[frenchiemk2]

10 hours ago, RobPearce said:

That white/yellow should be connected to your new black wire (ballast to coil). In fact, the white/yellow has two lucar connectors on it, which are intended to go to the coil and the ballast, thus replacing the new black wire. That plays no part in normal running but assists with starting, so worth doing.

Done

I think you may have trouble with the EI's red wire connecting to the white/grey. That's not a true "live" (ignition switched, the white circuit) but instead comes through the tacho. Wiring it like that will upset either the EI unit or the tacho, but I'm not sure which.

Try to get a plain white from ignition switch under the dash! But now i'm renewing the metering unit. Hope i get time to do it next week!

 

[RobPearce]

10 hours ago, frenchiemk2 said:

Try to get a plain white from ignition switch under the dash!

Is there not a white feed to the inertia switch? That's under-bonnet, if I remember right, so might be easier to tee off.

[Nick Jones]

21 hours ago, RobPearce said:

I think you may have trouble with the EI's red wire connecting to the white/grey. That's not a true "live" (ignition switched, the white circuit) but instead comes through the tacho.

From the dashboard pic that’s an RVI tacho and the trigger wire on those actually goes through the tacho without connecting to anything inside apart from a loop of wire through a current transformer. That should actually be the coil supply wire as the tacho works by detecting the current pulses to it. Works even when using coil packs triggered by an ECU.

[frenchiemk2]

1 hour ago, RobPearce said:

Is there not a white feed to the inertia switch? That's under-bonnet, if I remember right, so might be easier to tee off.

Yes maybe i saw one. I'll check.

[RobPearce]

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

That should actually be the coil supply wire

Yes, it should, but it should NOT be the EI supply wire. Hence my comment that the red wire (EI supply) should go to a proper white.

[Nick Jones]

Agreed.

[frenchiemk2]

Ok guys here's the news : won't start

Chris Witor sent me a Pertronix EI ref LU-166A BUT the car has a 25D6 distributor. 

LU-166A (ou 9LU-166A for Pertronix II ) meant to fit D22

I searched and found that the correct EI might be 9LU-162A  (Pertronix II ) for LUCAS 23D6, 25D6

Could this explain why it does not start?

 

[Nick Jones]

Can’t remember what the differences are between the distributor types. I thought they were pretty similar….

Edit:
Did a little checking…. Pertronix suppliers do list different part numbers and costs for the 22D6 vs 25D6. But it’s not clear why. Simon BBC/Powerspark list the same part, which is what I was remembering as I have one of those in the 25D6 fitted to my GT6. This implies the physical fitting is the same.  Also worth noting that the Powerspark units are £35, so you can buy at least 4 for the price of the Pertronix….

I guess the questions are
-Do you get a spark from the coil HT lead when the engine is rotating (or if you rotate the distributor body enough that the magnet passes the sensor)?
- If yes, do you actually get sparks at the spark plugs?
- If yes, how have you got it timed? My preferred basic setting method is to turn the engine to 10degrees before TDC on the firing stroke (remove rocker cover to check the rockers on #1 are loose and the ones on #6 are rocking), then slacken the distributor body,  rotate it clockwise as far as it wants to go then slowly bring it back anti-clockwise until you hear/see the spark jump. Then nip up the clamp. If you are still getting no firing, try a blast of carb cleaner into the intake. If it does fire then, you definitely have a fuel problem.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Nick Jones

[frenchiemk2]

mixed issues is the worst to progress...

Fueling : I' m about to purchase a fuel pressure gauge tool kit to check if the fuel pressure is correct upstream the metering unit (i think it's way too low pressure).

Electric : Also purchasing a new correct 25D EI module here in France, not too expensive  to see if there's a difference. Plus buying check coils/spark tools to see problems when trying to fire up the engine alone. When it will stop raining i'll check all this.

+ I only have the Haynes diagram for pi and I can't figure out what are those wires around the ballast :

- White plain = switch key contact, right?

- White/yellow or orange goes to the solenoid (according to Rob),

- what is the white/grey? 

 

 

[RobPearce]

32 minutes ago, frenchiemk2 said:

+ I only have the Haynes diagram for pi and I can't figure out what are those wires around the ballast :

That won't help. I actually don't have the Haynes for the 2500, just a Unipart (which is useless) and a reprint of the proper BL dealer WSM, which is the one you want. I'll see if I can scan the page you want later this evening. If the Haynes is like the Unipart, it simply does not have the wiring diagram for your car, only the later ones.

32 minutes ago, frenchiemk2 said:

- what is the white/grey? 

That's the coil +ve feed, which (on your model year) is not direct from ignition but rather connects to the rev counter. For diagnostic purposes, you could disconnect that and feed the coil direct from the battery, just until you've got it running, then put it back and, if necessary, fix the reason that's not working.

Edited January 19, 2023 by RobPearce

[frenchiemk2]

39 minutes ago, RobPearce said:

ve feed

Thanks for your reply and if you can scan the wiring it's cool! No rush since i won't be ready tomorrow.

but Sorry I don't get what "VE" is (is it a contraction of other terms i don't know?) 

[RobPearce]

5 minutes ago, frenchiemk2 said:

Sorry I don't get what "VE" is

Sorry - "+ve" (specifically with the plus sign) is electrical engineer's shorthand for "positive"

[RobPearce]

Here's that wiring diagram:

Observe at the top, items 8 and 80. Note the WS (white and slate grey) wire between them (and don't get confused by the way it's drawn crossing a white wire right next to the dot - that's not a connection!) This is the main supply feed to the coil, through the current sensed tachometer.

The WO (white and orange) wire from the other end of the resistor to the coil (item 9) also connects to the starter solenoid, item 7, to provide a bypass of the resistor while cranking.

[Nick Jones]

Possibly contentious but in my view, once you have EI, most of the reasons for the ballast resistor go away, so it might as well be removed and the wiring simplified? Obviously the correct voltage coil must be used. This is the route I’ve taken on my GT6 with the Powerspark unit.

What’s your view Rob?

[RobPearce]

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

once you have EI, most of the reasons for the ballast resistor go away,

No, I don't agree.

Most EI units (even those with magnetic or optical pickup) really only replace the mechanical points with a transistor - the dwell is still fixed, and the coil is still designed to safely saturate at low engine speed. Thus it's still very sensitive to battery voltage and would still very definitely benefit from the one thing that ballast resistor is intended for - being bypassed during cranking to give a better spark with a weak battery.

The thing that would make the ballast resistor pointless is if you fitted a closed-loop-dwell system, with a low resistance coil of the type used on modern cars, which would fry itself if permanently powered. However, that's getting into MegaJolt territory.

[Nick Jones]

1 hour ago, RobPearce said:

The thing that would make the ballast resistor pointless is if you fitted a closed-loop-dwell system, with a low resistance coil of the type used on modern cars, which would fry itself if permanently powered

Is this not what the Ignitor II and III are? (Not the Ignitor 1, Powerspark etc though, which are exactly as you say)

[RobPearce]

I'm not sure on the Ignitor II but if it is a closed-loop dwell of any worth then it WILL need to be mated with a new coil, which will probably be a dry type.

[frenchiemk2]

All right, i've made larger researches and this is what i found that might be correct (because those Pretronix electrical diagram are way too simple...).

the E.I is for 1.5 or 3.0 Ohms

the Flame thrower Coil is #40001 1.5 Ohms, the installation instructions say : for normal use, keep the resistor in place, (for 3.0 ohms coil remove resistor)

For record, old coil is Lucas 16C6 45232E (1.3 to 1.5 OHM)

Now that' might be the correct diagram upon Pertronix diagram and what you mentioned + net info, correct me if i'm mistaken!

Left is the model, and right is my car.

 

 

[RobPearce]

Your drawing on the right is pretty close, and good enough since the minor inaccuracies are in bits you won't be fiddling with. (There's a tacho between the ign switch and the white/grey, but that's all at the dash end and you won't be touching it.)

[frenchiemk2]

Well well.

Just received the new module (AccuSpark Stealth kit6)

Instructions (not including ballast)🙄