Rallying a TR4

[Wilfrid]

Nigel
Keep posting your stuff - I love reading it, especially as I own a 50 year old TR4 and am the car's only owner. Used to Club rally it in the early days plus autotesting but am now, and have been for some time, too old and decrepit! CT members will have been able to read things about the car in our magazine "Club Torque" - indeed it was on the front cover in July. I have always loved Triumphs and have owned or driven most models, but TRs are the tops.

Derek Pollock
President, CT

[Tim Bancroft]

Yep, please keep posting, it always makes for fascinating reading. Lots of CT members are either frustrated rally or race drivers!

I hope to enter Le Jog or the Rally of the Tests at some point in my life!

the RBRR and 10CR satisfy my needs and will always be essential yearly activities, but I'd dearly love to enter one of those events.

[Sheepy]

Nigel, great picture and keep posting.

Jason, yes I am sometimes one of the 99! But it is nice to read the story, and not always have anything to say (possative only from me! 😉)

[mikeyb]

Nigel, please keep posting.  I'm another of your "sleeping" readers and as the owner of a Rally prepared Herald, hope one day to when time and car reliability allow, to do some similar events to you, so follow your exploits with interest!

By the way, why not cut and paste some of your postings and send them to the editor for inclusion in Club Torque. I'm sure there are lots of Club members who don't use the forum but would love to read about your expoits  

[michael]

hi nigel i have been rallying a tr6 for many year best hrcr result was 5th on east anglian classic and equalling test time with the winning mk i escort.i used to tarmac rally a fiesta winning the barrett east of eng land championship many year ago.good luck regards michael

[thescrapman]

Quoted from michael

and equalling test time with the winning mk i escort.

That did cost us the big ends ....  

[Nigel A]

Thanks for the replies: I shall continue to write the occasional update, then!  We seem to have cracked 5,000 views anyway.

Michael, good results!  I seem to remember you were going to have a go at stage rallies a while back?  You had the '6 prepped up for them.

Never mind 'old and decrepit', Derek, I'm sure you are as fit as anyone after so many years of driving a TR4, especially if you have competed in it in the past!  It's a better workout than the gym.  I will start drawing my state pension next year and have no plans to stop rallying anytime soon!  

The best advice I can give anyone is to just jump in with both feet and enter a rally and see how it goes.  It doesn't matter if you make a right horlicks of it and the car falls apart, it's all par for the course on our first events, believe me (still happens now....)!  If you wait until the car's perfect you'll never get started 'cos it never will be!  Just do it: road rallies like the Hexham are cheap enough and only one night, a standard car will do.  You will also see experienced crews dropping some big clangers on the odd occasion, it always makes the rest of us feel a bit better. Pretty much everybody is friendly and always willing to help novices.  If you do the RBRR or 10CR (let alone organise it, Tim) then it's not a big step further to entering LeJog or the RoTT.  Yes, the entry is expensive but it includes all accommodation.  The addition of competition into the mix makes a big difference.

I reported on the 2011 Jim Clark Historic Rally earlier in this topic, still the biggest rally I've done as a driver.  We combined it with a fortnight's Scottish Borders holiday to reduce costs.  I'm still saving up to do it again, maybe next year.....there are many rallies I'd love to do but money is an issue as usual, however I still dream and sometimes the dream comes true.... here's one of my favourite photos from the rally for your interest:

[michael]

what FIA seats are you going to fit for next year and will they be hans compatable regards michael

[Nigel A]

Hi Michael

I'm a little confused by your question as pretty much all standard competition seats are fine to use a HANS device with, do you mean seat belts?  You can buy belts with shoulder straps which narrow down where the HANS fits, but you can still use some 'normal' belts; my TRS 3" harnesses don't have this feature but are still listed as being 'HANS compatible' by TRS.  It's important to note that the narrow strap HANS belts will not pass scrutineering for use without a HANS device, I remember doing one event where an Evo driver found his HANS was damaged thus failed scrutineering on the basis that the car was only fitted with narrowed belts, so didn't get a run even though it was a national rally where HANS devices were not mandatory.

This brings me to another point:  HANS devices are only compulsory on special stage rallies run under FIA International regulations (or events run under Republic of Ireland motor sports authority).  So for any rally at UK National status or below these devices are not required, but if you choose personally to use one that's fine, of course.  Very few Historic crews use them; it's true that they can be of great help in certain types of accident but in a small car like a TR I imagine they would be very restrictive to use. (No. I haven't tried one, but I imagine with the prices falling now it won't be long before they will be required at National level too)

TR4's being a bit on the narrow side the biggest problem with FIA seats is the 'wings' which support your shoulders.  The seat base is a tight enough fit but I found on most seats the 'wings' actually stuck out so much I couldn't close the windows!  I don't know if your TR6 is wider but there are seats available which do fit TR4's; I use MotorDrive WC2's which were developed for the Bowler Wildcat Dakar racers and have narrower 'wings'.  They are not listed on their website, ring and ask!

One tip with both belts and seats; they are 5-year dated under MSA stage regs so if you wait until early January and make sure they are freshly manufactured for the current year rather than old stock from the previous year (even just one month old!!) you will get your full five years' use from them!  Mine expire at the end of 2015 so I'll be forking out for new ones in early 2016.  

Fire extinguishers, both plumbed-in and hand held, have to be serviced and re-dated every two years.

Hope this helps!  Here's a picture too:

Nigel

[thescrapman]

He did mean seats and we now have another lead.

The existing seats are vaguely comfortable, but are 20-odd years old.

Cheers

Colin

[michael]

the question was ab out seats tr4 and tr6 same size door etc big wings are a problem and have to be Fia from 2014 regards michael

[michael]

nigel whereabouts do you live iam in essex regards michael

[Nigel A]

I live in Sandbach in Cheshire, Michael.

[michael]

hi that a pity thought i might come and try your seat .no much further to go to motor drive .have said i will go in jan after pendal penines not the christmas meal with car to have a fitting  many thanks regards michael

[Nigel A]

The guys at Motordrive are very helpful.  As these Wc2 seats are not listed on their website they will make them to special order, so you will get new build seats which will now last for 6 years under the FIA's new rules.   (I have an ex-Dakar Rally Bowler Wildcat so I tried a seat out of it in the TR4 and found they fitted, so rang to see if they still made them)

I also used Motordrive's alloy seat mountings which are compact and multi-position so just fit the TR4.  I had to do a bit of trimming here and there; there isn't much room so it took hours of trial and error!  If you want to pm me your email address I can send you photos.  I'm 6'2" tall and slim build, once I'm in I'm fine but there's no spare space!  Never had any problems wearing a crash helmet.

Nigel

[thescrapman]

Quoted from Nigel A

  I'm 6'2" tall and slim build, once I'm in I'm fine but there's no spare space!

I did suggest Mike asked you discretely if you were 5ft and 8 stone, or more to our proportions.

6'2" isn't an issue, slim build is...... 🤔

Having got our arses well and truely wedged in a couple of seats at the Autosport show last year, the enthusiasm for trying any more wained a touch.

Cheers

Colin

[Rallyspit]

Hi Nigel, Your threads are always read with interest. I especially enjoyed my ride in your TR at the Oulton Park Gold Cup last year and can vouch for how well prepared and torquey this TR4 is.

A good tip re the Bowler WC2 seats - thank you. I'm about to vist Alan at Motordrive to get some seats sorted for the Spitfire - even less room in that than a TR4!

Keep writing.

Mike

[Nigel A]

Thanks, Mike; glad you enjoyed the ride!  Unfortunately the HRCR were not organising the rally car demo at Oulton this year so we were not invited.  Shame as it was a good weekend's fun and a chance to give people a ride round at rally speeds.  Martin Knapp's TR7 Sprint and my TR4 were the only Triumphs the last two years so this year there were none - their loss!

If it helps, I recently learned of two other TR4 rally cars which use Cobra Monaco seats so they must fit OK too.  As they are steel framed rather than composite they are cheaper, but are still FIA approved so OK for stage rallies.

Nigel

[Nigel A]

Work begins on the long-awaited replacement chassis!

[Raider]

Blooming eck!!

Nice looking 2000 in the background too

[Englishbull]

James as a nice new brake system and he will have it on display stand at Stoneleigh this weekend........

[Nigel A]

I'd love better brakes, we lose out big style on braking - spectacularly when compared to modern cars!  One very wet 'n slippery rally last year the good ol' TR was pulling away from an Astra GTE we'd met on a 2-lapper 'merge' just before a long straight; he was about 50 metres behind as we started to brake for the 90 right at the end, and bang on our tail as we entered the corner!  Happy ending, though - he nipped past us and promptly spun off, we missed each other by a coat of paint!

BUT: if it's not original as used 'in period', it's not allowed in historic rallying.  No 4-pots, no vented, drilled or grooved discs, no rear disc conversions.  I can but dream of such braking power - and we are in the same class as Porsche 911's.  We just cruise along behind and wait for their transmissions to break......

Nigel  

[Nigel A]

Oh well, the best laid plans of mice and men, etc.!  I apologise to anyone who has been wondering what happened with my TR4 rally exploits last year.

As it's turned out, nothing! The TR4 is sitting under a dust sheet still awaiting it's new chassis. No rallies have been entered since the 3013 Clwyd Vale, and the TR7 dhc shell is on the body jig instead, also forlornly awaiting attention.

The fact is, the TR4 is too highly tuned for pottering along on regularity road rallies, is too low slung for forest tracks (especially now the MSA have  relegated Cat 1 cars to running at the back of the field for 'safety reasons'), and it simply cannot compete with the inevitable 911's and Escorts which are now dominating both the road and stage Historic rally scene.  But mainly thanks to the horrendous cost of stage rallies nowadays I have taken a step back until I can see where historic rallying is heading in the future.

So in 2014 I went back to Competitive Safari offroad racing, digging out my old Bowler Land Rover V8 buggy and having a ball at high speed and low cost while the Triumphs sat ignored.  Then I sold this car last autumn to concentrate on the ex-Dakar Bowler Wildcat 200 I all but destroyed in Scotland nearly ten years ago and which is now well on the way to racing again this year.

However the Triumphs are not forgotten and definitely not for sale!  The TR4 rebuild is the next job on the list, followed by the largely standard TR7 road rally project, and all this time my trusty '67 Mk1 2000 saloon has still been soldiering on with a bit of attention now and then as a change from working on the Wildcat.  We cruised it for 80 miles round Derbyshire on the recent Drive It day, and I may even get to do a few road rallies in it this year - maybe even the 'Tests'.  I do love driving the old girl, it's not fast 'n loud like the TR but is still a great drive.

I'll keep in touch!

Nigel

[Sheepy]

It's always nice to read your exploits Nigel, and see the pictures.

You will have to venture over here and do some, what about 'boucles de spa historic rally' if you do, give me a shout I will pop up and give you service support! (Done it before a few times before, when I was working for a chap building rally cars)
Good luck with the Land Rover, (one of my other passions) hope to see this thread updated at some point.
Good luck
Regards
Shaun

[Nigel A]

Well, it's been a while......

If anyone's been wondering, the TR4 was awakened from it's 2-year slumber last December, given a fresh overhaul of body and suspension (but not the new chassis just yet) and entered in the HRCR 'old Stager' tarmac stage rally championship.  Tarmac rallies only from now on.  It has also been treated to new seats and belts (the still perfectly good old ones are out of date now), a set of Avon CR6/ZZ soft compound tyres plus a new Stilo helmet, intercom and a Simpson FHR for me.  £thousands spent to comply with new regulations before even turning a wheel!

After the first three rounds, winning the class each time out, I was lying third overall in the championship with the car's 100% finishing record still intact, but unfortunately business matters have overtaken the time available so I won't be doing any more rounds this year - and I'm supposed to be retired!  However it's been great getting out in the car again; the AGBO Rally at Weston Park in March, the Dixies Challenge on the Epynt ranges in June and the Midsummer Stages at Caerwent in July.  I'll be using it for the odd outing - next Thusday it's off to the Curborough sprint track for an open test day for a bit of fun - but come the winter the big chassis job starts. At last.  Possibly.  Unless I'm tempted to do just one more rally, of course.

There is a nice article about my TR on the AGBO rally in the new October/November issue of Triumph World magazine.

Nigel