Unmatched wire wheels and hubs

[A TR7 16V]

I got, separately, a set of 13" wire wheels, reasonably cheap, and a set of hub adaptors. The hub adaptors, at least, are meant to be for a Spitfire/Herald, but either they are too short for the wheel hubs, or the wheel hubs are too wide/deep for the adaptors. 

Can anybody suggest what I should measure, and what that measurement should be?

Graham

[A TR7 16V]

It seems it's the hubs. According to MWS, the Spitfire/Herald takes a Rudge-Whitworth type 42 hub, the splines for which are 37mm long. These are 18mm.

Graham

[A TR7 16V]

No, it's the wheels. The hubs fit and it's Spitfire wheels that are odd, i.e. not type 42s. Anybody want 4 Sprigit wheels?

Graham

[thescrapman]

I thought the best thing was to fit Spridget parts to Triumphs as the splines were bigger and don't strip unlike the correct ones, but I can't remember what the best combination is.

it used to be fairly easily found in the forum archives.

[A TR7 16V]

Yes, the sprigit hubs have longer splines, but my understanding (yet to be checked) is that you need shorter wheel studs and (possibly) new nuts with the sprigit wires and hub adaptors, and can't then go back to steel wheels without some issues. But the Spitfire ones go on the existing studs with herald nuts. I may hang on to the sprigit wheels and see if hubs turn up sometime.

Hopefully I'll know in a couple of days when the wheels arrive and I can offer them up.

Graham

[thescrapman]

You definitely need the shorter studs and stumpy nuts with Triumoh sourced wires, well I have with the small chassis cars I had with wires.

Also got them on my "wired" TR.

[A TR7 16V]

It seemed to make sense that, if Triumph were offering special wire wheels as an option on the Spitfire, they'd made/got ones that would ifit on the Spitfire and so Herald hubs with adaptors. 

But the wire wheels on your small chassis Triumph(s)  are not the 37mm long spline Whitworth-Rudge Type 42 hub, like the ones for the TR and Sprigit. They are the 18mm long spline, Xzd466 type ones. And they still needed the studs shortening? 

Just shows the folly in assuming Triumph were logical.

Graham

[A TR7 16V]

Does anybody know where'd to get 3.75", 92.25mm PCD to type 42 hub adaptors? the only ones I can find for that PCD are for short spline Xzd466 type wheels.

Or does one file Sprigit hub adaptor holes in from 4 to 3.75 PCD It's only an 1/8th inch.

Graham

[thescrapman]

I a man quite sure yu can buy the correct hubs in a Triumoh PCD.

but if not, just drill Spridget hubs at 45 degrees with holes toTriumph PCD.

[A TR7 16V]

Hang about, which is the right PCD dimension for the Herald, 3.75 inch or 92.25mm? Both are given, but there's 3mm difference betwixt.

I'm going to bet this will teach me I should check these things not take as given.

Graham

[glang]

I think theres been a typo somewhere as the pcd is 95.25mm which is 3.75 inches...

[A TR7 16V]

Ah good.

In which case, rather than shorten the studs, why not use 6mm spaces? I thought it was a problem that the 4 stud slotted ones only seem to go down to 95mm, the ones specific for the Spitfire/Herald being a bit expensive. But that, it seems is ok.

Graham

[glang]

Cant see any problem with that apart from possibly tyre-wheel arch clearance and then slightly more wheel bearing load because of the wider wheel base....

[A TR7 16V]

Well the change from spacers on bearing load should be less than going to a 4.5" rim, which moves the centroid of the contact area out by about 12mm on each side, with a heavier wheel and tyre,  and no one seems to think that's pushing the envelope at all. True, I'll be doing both that and adding spaces, but I haven't seen any caveats on 5" rims, and that's a bigger change overall.

I guess the effect on clearance is more complex, but I doubt it'll be a problem as long as I keep the same or smaller rolling diameter as 5.20 crossplys. 

Graham

[A TR7 16V]

I've offered the hub adaptor up on a cheap 5mm spacer, just as a look see. The wheel fits clear of the nuts with the spinner done up. Hard to see how much clear, but there's no marks from any nuts on the rust inside the hub, and that's after both a right good wiggle and the spinner well done up.

However, 5mm is clearly too thick - looking at the result, I'm wondering if I'm even going to need one. I didn't try that cos I didn't have me thinking head on. And now I've put it all back together again. But the shape inside the hub suggests the edges of nuts that thick should catch mms before the stud.

The problem I know I have is that there's not enough clearance between adaptor and studs for the 11/16ths socket to fit on the nuts. And it don't look like the thinnest wall one possible would fit neither. I think it's the next size down or use an open-ender. So, unless someone can point me at a cheap open-ended torque wrench, I'm not sure what to do.

I know that's a left side adaptor on the right side, BTW. 

[glang]

I think perhaps youre over thinking it Graham. Ive never done up wheel nuts with a torque wrench and although a socket/ring spanner would be best an open ender will have to do. If youre worried you could remove the adaptor/spacer and practice doing up a nut with a spanner confirming when its correct using the torque wrench....

[A TR7 16V]

Maybe and might work, but I might be happier with sub-sized nuts, say 5/8ths af on the 3/8 stud. But as the adaptors locate on the taper of the nut, not the hub ring, they may be hard to find.

What do you reckon on the spacer: does it look like it's going to need a 3mm one, or will it go without? 

Graham

[glang]

Id be surprised if you cant do without spacers but perhaps you could put some putty (or gum?) over the end of a stud, put the wheel on and remove it to see what thickness of putty it leaves....

[A TR7 16V]

I only bought the spacer cos Colin was pretty sure I'd need to do something about the stud lengths, and TR Shop sell spacers (but don't say what thickness they are) with their kit to fit Dunlop 466 type wire wheels on the Herald/Spit/GT6/Vitesse. 

Something squidgy on the stud's is a good idea. Shame the kids grew out of playdoh so long ago it's all gone hard. Could have nicked some o' theirs. I might get up to Poundland tomorrow. Bet they'll have plasticine by another name. Wonder how much it will cost. 

Graham

[nang]

Sorry, but the whole thing looks dodgy to me. Hate to lose a wheel (or 2 ) at any sort of speed.

 

Just my cautious opinion. 😇

Tony.

[glang]

But this is the standard set up (without spacers) that loads of wire wheel users have! As long as the studs enter fully into the nuts and the back of the wheel clears them it couldnt be safer.

Anyway I believe you can still drive ok on three wheels or is that a Citroen.....😉 

[thescrapman]

If you fit a steel wheel, how much of the studs protrude out of the wheel nut?

[A TR7 16V]

Tony, What aspect looks dodgy? As I understand it, these are the factory fit hub adaptors for the Dunlop wire wheel option on the Spitfire/GT6. I admit I'm not sure if it was an option on Herald, but if it fits the Spitfire, I can't see it can be wrong for the Herald.

The question is, whether Triumph also fitted 5-6mm shorter studs with the wires. I find it a bit hard to credit they would have done that if it was at all possible to avoid, and looking at the photo with a spacer in, it does look unnecessary.

I can see why spacers or short studs would be needed to fit modified Spridget Whitworth-Rudge type 42 hub adaptors, but not the factory fit Dunlop ones.

I could credit Triumph used lower profile nuts. But as the wheel don't touch the standard nuts even with the obviously over-thick spacer behind the adaptor flange, I don't see how they can be essential either. Again, I can see why they might be needed with the type 42 hub adaptors though.

And I'm not proposing to use that spacer, even were it the right thickness. I'd use the MGF ones (which is why the check it was 3.75" PCD not the 92.25mm some internet sources give). But the MGF ones are £10-15 each. So I were never gonna buy one of them just to test the thickness I need when I can get one of these cheap 4/5 hole ones for next to nowt.

The bit I'm unhappy about is not being able to torque the nuts up to 40 lbft. I know I shouldn't need to be at these nuts roadside - that's the whole point of spin-ons. So Tony's idea of practising till I get the right load with an open-ender will  work. But till I get a 5th Dunlop wire, I'll have to carry a steel spare wheel (and a can of puncture repair). I've seen roadside puncture repair kits to plug a hole in 20 mins, but I don't know if they're any good.

Graham

[A TR7 16V]

tried it without spacer and it definitely fits.

About 1/16th inch of stud beyond the nut with the standard Triumph Herald 3J5 wheel on.

 

But I put me thinkin head on, and worked out how to see what the margin is without the trip to poundland. The pencil was used to find the depth at the inner edge of the stud hole, where the wheel hub comes nearest the flange. I also measured in the centre, and it's about 15/16ths.

Not perfect pictures, or exact measurement methods, but I think it can be seen that there's going to be about 1/4 inch clearance to the shoulder of the nut, and about 1/8th, maybe 1/4 to the stud end.

But I'm still stressing about torquing the nuts up. 40 lbft with an open ender is many, considering the issue that I can't have the wheel to stop the hub turning. So it's going to be a bit of a problem to do alone.  

Looking more closely, it may just be possible to get a thin wall socket to fit, though it's marginal.

But even with a socket on the nut, I don't know what torque I can apply just with the nut on the opposite side of the axle from the force on the wrench (so the residual down force on the nut tries to counters the wheel turning as a reaction to the torque on the nut). I doubt it's 40 lbft. Probably not a problem with someone's foot on the brake. But if I ever have to do it alone, it'll be a right bugger.  A long bar bent at the end with two short bits of 11/16 id pipe welded to in in the right place (1.414 * 3.75/2 inches apart) perhaps?

Graham

[glang]

can you not get the wheel onto the spline and still have room to squeeze a spanner in onto the nuts? Maybe even with the wheel reversed so that the space is maximised then with a robust assistant holding the wheel flog up the nuts....

You could even use some locktite on the threads if youre worried about em coming undone