rotoflex info

[fastbetty]

Hi All

Can anyone give me advice and experiances of rotoflex couplings . First off if a coupling is degrading would  there be any warning, ie unusual sounds or and impaired handling . Also I has anyone fitted quinton hazel rotoflex couplings and if so what do you think of them ?

Thanks Dave

[Clive]

The couplings are usually visually inspected. Cracks etc should be easily visible, but of course failure can be instant too :-/

QH are  the same as the other cheap ones (I believe) only the metalastic ones (whoever makes them now) are a long term solution, or go CV jointed. Neither a cheap fix.

[Deleted User]

They're a total PITA and not worth the grief now that decent quality doonuts are unobtanium.

If you're going to be keeping the car for any length of time a CV conversion makes good financial sense as you can pay £100+ each for a proper metalastic donut even if you can find them.

http://www.canleyclassics.com/searchforapart/?desc=CV%20CONVERSION%20FOR%20ROTOFLEX%20(LESS%20OUTER%20CV'S)

[Freebird]

Hi Dave

I fitted a QH roto to the nearside of my Vitesse when I bought it 5 years ago and it's still in good nick after about 25000 miles, some of them driven pretty hard. So either they are not as bad as some people make out, or I have been lucky.

The Metalasic one the other side (of unknown age) split right through earlier this year and I replaced that with a secondhand Metalastic one when a pair came up on eBay.  Bit tricky compressing a second hand one (new ones have a metal band around them) I used a ratchet strap to good effect.

Apart from the visual split, there was no other sign of failure. I did get a sort of rythmic vibration on hard acceleration and thought (hoped) it might have been the cause - but that's still there, so clearly not.

Glen.

[fastbetty]

Thanks for all your help .
I would like to convert the whole unit but cannot afford it at the mo :'(. so may have to fit the Quinton Hazel units :-/ but good to hear that they can work well with some people ;D The other problem I have is not knowing the product code , any info on that would be great :)

Thanks again
Dave

[Freebird]

Hi Dave

They come up on eBay often. Here is a pair.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TRIUMPH-Vitesse-GT6-Rotoflex-Rubber-Doughnuts-x2-/220798976625?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3368a50271

Glen.

[TR7th Heaven]

I've just fitted a pair of QH donuts from James Paddock and I'm well pleased. They seem well made and are hugely cheaper than the Metalastic ones. I realise that they might not last as long but on a car that will only do 3 or 4 thousand miles a year they could last 8 to 10 years or more.
Doing a CV conversion or fitting Metalastic ones at a hundred quid a pop just wasn't an affordable option for me.
Whilst there are some cheap nasty unbranded ones out there, QH donuts seem to be a viable option.
James Paddock sell both Metalastic and QH and have had no issues with either. Canley Classics sell QH too I believe.
Cheers,
Rich  ;)

[MarkB]

I recently replaced both doughnuts on my GT6, both QH items. The last pair which make I can't recall, but were purchased from TD Fitchets lasted no more than a maximum of three years with less than a thousand miles covered. The car sat for long periods between use, as I have other triumphs, and i think this is what killed them and the fact that rubber nowadays is like bubble gum. I was shocked to find large splits at the joints of the roto's when I was doing a quick once over before an MOT. When the car was being examined it had settled in a different positing and the cracks were not easily visible to the MOT man. I replaced them anyway for safeties sake. The point is I think the longevity has more to do with the material deteriorating over time than actual use. Speaking to a supplier generally about the poor quality of rubber components window seals etc. and he suggested it was probably to do with the fact that not as much actual rubber is used in the make up of the material nowadays. When these doughnuts de-solve I will definitely use CV joints. I have already changed to Sliding splines on my Vitesse.

Cheers

Mark

[fastbetty]

Hi all

I am informed that the Quinton Hazell product code is QL8000 :-/ can anyone confirm this  :)

Thanks
Dave

[Richard B]

93 wrote:

Speaking to a supplier generally about the poor quality of rubber components window seals etc. and he suggested it was probably to do with the fact that not as much actual rubber is used in the make up of the material nowadays.

I think that certain substances that were used in the manufacture of rubber have now been banned.

[heraldcoupe]

Richard_B wrote:

I think that certain substances that were used in the manufacture of rubber have now been banned.

If not altogether banned, certainly more closely regulated. That's enough incentive to manufacture in other countries, or to find a less regulatory intensive production method.

Metalastik was bought out by Trelleborg, which has been the kiss of death for certain other manufacturers in 'our' industry,

Cheers,
Bill.

[Clive]

I really do not buy into the banned chemicals bit. 2 reasons, firstly that I would suspect a lot of the stuff for our cars is actually made in parts of the world where such bans are in force. But mainly that if you go and buy a new car, the rubber bits still seem to last forever. Hoses, mounts, all of it.
My only suspicion is the bits for our car have been price engineered, probably to make the manufacturing process cheaper. We need more small quality manufacturors.....and more people prepared to pay for quality products. Knock them if you wish, but TSSC have been getting silicone hose sets made, Bill is always developing new mouldings, long may it continue :) Just needs punters to put their hands in their pockets :o

[MarkB]

Hi all

I ordered three new hose sets for my cars from a supplier and asked for the sets made from silicone. They told me they no longer sell the silicone ones as they found they were not lasting as well as the 'Rubber' sets. So that has put me off of buying silicone, a material that I thought was very durable.

Cheers

Mark

[Clive]

Are you sure it wasn't the "kevlar" ones. They seem to be made of rubber that dissolves after a few months. Silicone should last indefinately, unless they were "almost silicone"
I thought the TSSC was the only lot producing them at the moment? Not cheap, but probably worth the cost long term.

I actually used normal off thge roll heater hose for many of the hoses on my car, seems to last very well, and tight radius bends are possible if one of the stainless springy insert things are used.

[MarkB]

Hi Clive
Yes your right, got my wires crossed, it was kevlar, I am pleased that has put me straight I was about to put my nephew off of buying silicone hoses :D

Cheers

mark

[GT6 M]

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=24&ved=0CDUQFjADOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.missionsupplyonline.com%2Fpdf%2Frotoflex.pdf&rct=j&q=rotoflex%20couplings&ei=EpsBToyACZKzhAfY0e2_DQ&usg=AFQjCNG9O7Ng_Sz_AlyQ_c8X9pmclt4-Jw&sig2=z9dUHXOZAMU2ok-HXqyNOg&cad=rja

[Freebird]

Going off topic a bit here, but what niggles me is how quickly fuel hoses deteriorate and crack especially on bends. Petrol is really rather flammable don't you know?? ??) ??) ??)

[heraldcoupe]

Freebird wrote:

Going off topic a bit here, but what niggles me is how quickly fuel hoses deteriorate and crack especially on bends. Petrol is really rather flammable don't you know?? ??) ??) ??)

Tell me about it. I stopped selling it as I couldn't find a source I trusted. Four months on one of my cars and it was starting to crack, wasn't going to leave my customers very happy,

Cheers,
Bill.

[G8HSV]

What is all the fuss over rotoflex replacements anyway.  I replaceed mine (with QH units...as I couldnt fint Metalastik ones).  The operation is quite straighforward and the real problem I had was getting the hubs off and setting the endfloat.  Many modern cars can be a total nightmare in comparison (and thats to replace a headlamp bulb!!)

The fuel hoses on my Vitesse are the original one and 41 years old.  However I have had to cut the off in the course renovating the car.  I'll bet the new ones done last so long.

I owned a mint Lotus Esprit Turbo which had replacement fuel hoses just 5 years...they one small leak (not from the joint) and the car was totally destroyed....on my front garden.  The hoses were braided so looked great.  the trouble is you cant see what lies beneath.  This was long before the ethanol addition to petrol too.

[Deleted User]

cliftyhanger wrote:

I thought the TSSC was the only lot producing them at the moment? .

Nope…

http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-RL1034-SAMCO

[Deleted User]

Freebird wrote:

Going off topic a bit here, but what niggles me is how quickly fuel hoses deteriorate and crack especially on bends. Petrol is really rather flammable don't you know?? ??) ??) ??)

Blame it on the Benzene.

You can get far better grade and reinforced fuel hose from boat chandlers and for light aircraft use.

[Freebird]

3708 wrote:

Blame it on the Benzene.

Not sure about that, the cracks are on the outside.

[MarkB]

Hi all
I have had this problem with fuel pipe disintegrating, Scandalous! I read an excellent thread, which I thought was on here a while back, which went into great detail as to why we get palmed off with shite fuel pipe. Basically I think there is a load of old crap out there that no other country will look twice at so it gets sent to 'treasure island' to unsuspecting Brits to dice with. I took a couple of notes and as I read it, 30R9/30R10 Current Standard, 30R9 bore lined with Fluoroelastomer/Nitrile and 30R10 has this material inside and outside so that in can be immersed in petrol. This material is apparently the best available. Somebody may remember where the thread is, I can't find it. It goes into a lot more detail, a great thread if anyone can find it.

Cheers

Mark

[Clive]

I think this is the post you are looking for, I pinched it from another forum :)

Quote:

Fuel pipe research (long!) - for discussion!

You may recall that I had a rant about rotting flexible fuel pipe a while ago (LINKY).

In the end I did a lot of internet research, and came up with the following observations:

Background

* Since getting my car on the road 7 or 8 years ago I have had to replace rotted flexible fuel hoses 3 times. Each time the hose has cracked and was dripping fuel everywhere.
* I have always used decent quality hose (Gates, or similar).
* It seemed to happen randomly but especially after a long spell in the garage, whether due to bad weather or whatever. (significant point #1)
* Some other people had similar problems.
* More people were using similar hose and having no problems (significant point #2)

Results of research

* Petrol has changed significantly over past few years - it now contains more alcohol-based substances, which are very corrosive to normal rubber.
* Hoses in the USA are marked with an SAE code, e.g. SAE J30R9, according to its ability to resist modern fuels. As much of the hose bought in the UK is made (or sold) in the USA then these markings may appear here.
* There are 4 significant groups of SAE codes:
Unmarked hose - will probably be for the original petrol formula, without modern additives (but see later comments).
30R6 - This is the standard for the petrol formula of 5 - 10 years ago, for fuel injection. The bore may or may not be lined with Nitrile.
30R7 - This is the standard for the petrol formula of 2 or 3 years ago, for fuel injection. The bore is lined with Nitrile.
30R9 / 30R10 - This is the current standard. The bore is lined with Fluoroelastomer/Nitrile. 30R9 has Fluoroelastomer/Nitrile on the inside, while 30R10 has it inside and out, which allows it to be used immersed in petrol (e.g. in a fuel tank).
* There is also a marine grade for use in boats - ISO 7480 A1 - that is roughly equivalent to 30R7-and-a-bit, with added fire resistance.
* One of the causes of fuel pipe failure described in the USA literature is stale modern fuel, not so much the fuel itself. These fuels become extra-corrosive when they get old.
* The USA seem to use a higher percentage of alcohol in their regular fuel - but we're not far behind in Europe.

What got me angry...

* Gates in the USA only make and sell fuel pipe of grade 30R9 or better (they even have brand-new super-grades). Gates in the UK distribute unmarked hose to motor factors that, if you are lucky, is only 30R6. Why don't we get the same? Are they dumping their surplus stock on the UK?
* The Gates sales rep for the UK and Europe didn't know that the USA grades were far higher than his offerings - he didn't even know the trade names for the USA products (shown in every USA Gates catalogue).
* 30R9 is freely available on the USA ebay, at sensible prices, made by big-name manufacturers such as Gates and Goodyear. It is never (or maybe rarely) available on the UK ebay. Only the excessive postage stopped me from buying it there.
* One on-line supplier (Think Auto) advertised that their hose is 30R9, but when it turned up it was unmarked. I recognised that it was stuff that I'd used previously and told them so. To their credit they apologised, refunded my money AND paid for the return postage.
* There is a general ignorance about this whole issue - when I asked for a specific grade of hose many suppliers didn't comprehend, while others were almost abusive ("Our stuff is good enough...!).
* The one who did supply the correct hose, Hose World, advertised it as 30R10 on their website, the bloke on the phone didn't think it was any special grade when I asked, and when it turned up it was 30R9, which is what I was after in the first place!
* If you search on any USA car forum about fuel pipe you will see that most people are fully aware of this issue, and the need to use modern hose. There seems to be a general ignorance in the UK.

Last thoughts and recommendations

It was almost certainly stale fuel that rotted my fuel pipe(s).

1. Don't buy general-purpose hose from a motor factor, unless it has at least 30R9 printed on it. Even stuff off the Gates stand isn't good enough.
2. If you are getting it via the internet or mail order, don't be fobbed off by excuses. Only the proper stuff is safe for long-term use.
3. If you are going to leave your car unused for a month or so, consider draining the petrol, especially if you are unsure of your fuel pipe grade.
4. If you really can't get 30R9, consider getting ISO 7480 - this is easily available from marine suppliers in the UK (but see point 3). All proper fuel pipe in this grade has to be marked, to meet regulations.

Additional thought

Re-reading some of the websites I found during this research reminded me of an important indication of fuel pipe decay - smell.

If you go into your garage and there is a stink of petrol, but you can't find a leak, then it is very likely that vapour is permeating through the fuel hose. If this is the case then it is a fair bet that the hose will fail sometime in the near future... maybe not immediately, but sometime.

[junkuser]

Valuable information.
Thank you Clive,
                           Mal.