Small crank GE to large crank DH engine swap?

[oldbury863]

Hi, I have a Herald 13/60 with a GE engine but have aquired a large crank 1300 (DH) toledo / dolomite engine that came complete with it's single rail gearbox. I know the 'GE' engine is generally considered the better one to have but I dont want to bore everyone at this point with the issues I have had with mine. Suffice to say that I have lost faith in my engine and NEED to swap it out to preserve my own sanity!

Can anyone please confirm what parts might need to be swapped over if I retain my existing 3 syncro Herald gearbox? The parts that I am seeking clarification over are: front and rear engine plates and sump, also will my existing flywheel and clutch fit the DH crank, and will my existing gearbox input shaft spigot fit the DH crank?  If the DH engine isnt a relatively straightforward swap I will need to seek another GE......

Looking forward to any replies, Richard

[RobPearce]

The DH engine is very similar to the GK engine of the last Heralds. The sump is different so you need to swap with your existing one. The flywheels should be the same, I think, but if not then it's only the mounting bolt size. The DH flywheel will work with a GE clutch. I think the input shaft tip fits the bush, but the splines are different so you do need your GE clutch driven plate, at least. Front and rear engine plates are, I'm fairly sure, the same (this is not true of 2000 saloon into Vitesse) but the engine mounts themselves are different. I think the DH, at least if it's a Toledo one, has the same ring gear, so your starter motor should still work (this is not true of 1500 Dolomite engines).

[oldbury863]

Thanks for the info Rob, thats very reassuring. Looks like its probably only the sump that needs swapping. Am I correct in thinking that the heads are the same?

Its just the different head gasket thats required for the recessed block?

[RobPearce]

The heads are certainly similar. There are probably detail differences - valve sizes, compression ratio, possibly some waterway tappings (some engines had a takeoff for the heater on the rear right corner of the head, late ones don't).

[standardthread]

I have Heralds with GE series engines, as well as a 1300 Dolomite (and spare boxes for both, single and three rail).

The bellhousing is identical and can be used on both, I purchased a 1500 Spitfire box (single rail) without bellhousing (postage/weight) and mated it with a Herald bellhousing to use on a 1300 Dolomite.

I've also used a GE series head on a MkIV GD series short block with no problems.

To add to the mix I prefer three rail boxes, don't know why the hell BL switched from three rail on the early Dolomites to the final single rail version.

[glang]

I wonder if the rapid wear of the 3 rail linkage, which is very exposed, was a factor in the change to the later design...

[thescrapman]

There is one thing to catch you out, fitting a 3-rail bell housing to a single rail gearbox will result in an inability to select some gears, needs the hole for the single rail to go into.

Never had any issues with the 3-rail, had wear in the single rail selectors.

[standardthread]

15 hours ago, thescrapman said:

There is one thing to catch you out, fitting a 3-rail bell housing to a single rail gearbox will result in an inability to select some gears, needs the hole for the single rail to go into.

 

From memory it's a recess in the mating face of the bellhousing isn't it? But I did it the other way around.

15 hours ago, thescrapman said:

Never had any issues with the 3-rail, had wear in the single rail selectors.

Same here.

One thing to note from previous posts, if you fit a single rail box it has twenty splines on the gearbox shaft opposed to ten on three rail boxes. the 20 spline clutch plate is like elephant's egg to find, I know from experience.

Edited October 25, 2022 by standardthread

[sparky_spit]

Isn't the 20 spline clutch plate required a Morris Minor one? I think that's what I have in mine, although it was years ago that I put it in, so I might be talking rubbish. 

[standardthread]

2 hours ago, sparky_spit said:

Isn't the 20 spline clutch plate required a Morris Minor one?

Not sure, I know 6 1/4" 20 spline plates are very difficult to find. I picked a couple up of new old stock plates off fleabay about 2 years ago but they were advertised for a Marina I think.

I used one with no problem on my last 1300 Dolomite (now sold) after the plate on the re-con clutch fitted by a previous owner literally exploded and smashed the nose in the bellhousing. The cover I used was a Herald cover I had in stock.

Another reason why, if push came to shove I would go back to a three rail box, 6 1/4" 10 spline plate because the clutches are readily available and used in loads of other makes of car

[sparky_spit]

If they are the same as the Morris minor, then they ought to be easy to source, as there is a pretty large spares industry for the car, just as there is for Minis, etc. So maybe I'm wrong.

Anybody know for sure?

[JumpingFrog]

5 minutes ago, sparky_spit said:

If they are the same as the Morris minor, then they ought to be easy to source, as there is a pretty large spares industry for the car, just as there is for Minis, etc. So maybe I'm wrong.

Anybody know for sure?

That specific Toledo 1300 clutch was also fitted to the Morris Marina. But not all Marina, only early Marina 1300 (for one year only I believe). Later Marina 1300 switched to a larger clutch. The part is basically NLA, as standardthread said, not easy to source.

[RobPearce]

7 hours ago, sparky_spit said:

Isn't the 20 spline clutch plate required a Morris Minor one?

I thought that was usually quoted for the opposite - three rail box on a 1500, rather than single rail on a 1300 - although that, too, may be nonsense.

[standardthread]

19 minutes ago, RobPearce said:

I thought that was usually quoted for the opposite - three rail box on a 1500, rather than single rail on a 1300 - although that, too, may be nonsense.

I thought all three rail boxes were all 10 spline?

I did think of fitting a 1500 flywheel to my current 1300 Dolomite if I couldn't get a clutch, because that is a 6 1/2" plate, but that causes problems with bolt size and recess on the flywheel, but the previous owner thinks my factory fitted clutch could be a 1500 flywheel, time will tell. Apparently BL fitted 1500 flywheels and clutches to the 1300 Dolomites supplied to BSM (British School of Motoring), but mine was never intended to go down that route, just a very late built.

[RobPearce]

1 hour ago, standardthread said:

I thought all three rail boxes were all 10 spline?

Yes. What I meant was that I've seen "Morris Minor" quoted as a 10-spline 6 1/2" plate rather than a 20-spline 6 1/4"

[oldbury863]

I was hoping to cross reference some of the parts between Herald, Spitfire and Toledo engines. Regarding the valves, although the spring retainer method differs on later engines the valve sizes appear to be 30mm exhaust for all 13/60 & Toledos, early 'DG' engines having 33mm dia inlet valves (same as my 13/60) and later ones 36.3mm but my 'spare' DG engine has 35mm dia ones?! Can anyone shed any light please? I cant find mention of this size anywhere.

It doesnt look like an engine thats ever been apart since day one. Its certainly dirty enough.

[standardthread]

13 hours ago, oldbury863 said:

I was hoping to cross reference some of the parts between Herald, Spitfire and Toledo engines. Regarding the valves, although the spring retainer method differs on later engines the valve sizes appear to be 30mm exhaust for all 13/60 & Toledos, early 'DG' engines having 33mm dia inlet valves (same as my 13/60) and later ones 36.3mm but my 'spare' DG engine has 35mm dia ones?! Can anyone shed any light please? I cant find mention of this size anywhere.

It doesnt look like an engine thats ever been apart since day one. Its certainly dirty enough.

Has it had a hardened seat conversion done?

I had my first done by the TSSC nearly forty years ago, so the engine could look filthy. My second was done locally by an engineering firm about thirty years ago, so again, potentially black engine.

[oldbury863]

Ive now found a photo of an old parts catalogue on ebay that shows that Toledos from 72 -75 used 145328 (36.3mm) inlet valves and 75-76 used UKC2460 (35.1mm). This is apparently also the part number used for 1500 spit / midget engines. Strange that they used a smaller valve on a later (and bigger) engine. Some sellers are incorrectly stating that inlets are only either 33 or 36.3mm.

[yorkshire_spam]

Handy cross reference for valve sizes, heads etc. :

http://auskellian.com/paul/links_files/performance_enhancements.htm#Raise_the_Compression_Ratio

 

[oldbury863]

Very informative and useful article thankyou, reassuringly my head numbers tally.🙂