Raising front of bonnet options?

[THe Maestro]

Apologies for making another thread, my last thread started off on a different subject and then diverged onto this.

I seem to have exhaused most options so I'm considering raising the front of my bonnet up by cutting the two front bonnet support tubes and welding in an extra inch or a little more of tubing.  I'd put a metal bar inside for extra strength.

Before I go ahead and do this does anyone have any comments or better ideas?

I could buy new bonnett support tubes but since I'm not sure if there's even anything wrong with them I don't really fancy throwing over £100 away.

Here are the original photos I posted.  The adjustments on the front of the hinge boxes are already beyond their normal maximum vertical placement and the support tube to bonnect brackets are already packed with washers.

Any help or ideas very much appreciated..

[Russell]

Whereabouts in the country are you? It may need a similar car side-by-side to work out where the fault is. I'd happily pop round with the Spitfire if you're in suffolk/essex

If it is bonnet tubes, keep an eye on eBay. I got a second hand pair for 99p a couple of years ago (plus £15 postage) when my hinge end snapped on one side.

Russell.

[Russell]

... actually the front on view of your car looks fine (compare with my avtar). So if you make the bonnet tubes longer the gap would be huge.

[Deleted User]

I suspect you need to look a bit further than just the bonnet, the problem appears to be much more fundemental.  My bet is that the body has not been correctly mounted on the chassis, or the chassis is bent.

Can you post some shots of the COMPLETE side of the car (both sides) with it parked on level ground (tarmac or concrete) taken from far enough away to not get paralax errors.

Can you also post some pictures of the mounting of the body onto the front outriggers.

[THe Maestro]

RussellBanyard wrote:

Whereabouts in the country are you? It may need a similar car side-by-side to work out where the fault is. I'd happily pop round with the Spitfire if you're in suffolk/essex

If it is bonnet tubes, keep an eye on eBay. I got a second hand pair for 99p a couple of years ago (plus £15 postage) when my hinge end snapped on one side.

Russell.

Thanks for the offer but I live in Lancashire!  

Regarding the gap between the bumper and the bottom front of the bonnet, I have seen quite a few cars that have a much bigger gap there than I have now, although I agree that from the front it looks correct as it is.
I do also think that my hinge boxes are slightly low (obviously rewelded on and left doesn't match right) but not low enough to account for the full problem.

[THe Maestro]

KevinR wrote:

I suspect you need to look a bit further than just the bonnet, the problem appears to be much more fundemental.  My bet is that the body has not been correctly mounted on the chassis, or the chassis is bent.

Can you post some shots of the COMPLETE side of the car (both sides) with it parked on level ground (tarmac or concrete) taken from far enough away to not get paralax errors.

Can you also post some pictures of the mounting of the body onto the front outriggers.

Will do.  I might not be able to get the full side shot of the car due to having to put it on the road with no tax and a noisy neighbour but I think I've got a place on my drive where I may be able to take it  at least on one side.

I'll get the photo of the mountings.  I have had a look at them and there are no spacers/packing raising the body up abnormally that I can see.

If its a bent chassis it would have to be bent downwards by over an inch between the bulkhead and the front crossmember - could I could test this with holding a taught piece of string along the length of it maybe ?  Or are you thinking something different?

[tiggrr1]

Where abouts in Lancashire are you?

I'm in Bolton............................................ Could be an excuse for a run out for me this weekend ;)

I have a 1971 MKIII GT6 you could compare with yours. It's not a perfect concoure car but you could take as many pics as you like for reference etc.

8) I could take you for a ride out too  8)

Also if your in Lancashire why not come to the Pendle and Pennine meeting on the first Friday of every month?
Lots of friendly people who are only too happy to chat and offer advice.

[THe Maestro]

tiggrr1 wrote:

Where abouts in Lancashire are you?

I'm in Bolton............................................ Could be an excuse for a run out for me this weekend ;)

I have a 1971 MKIII GT6 you could compare with yours. It's not a perfect concoure car but you could take as many pics as you like for reference etc.

8) I could take you for a ride out too  8)

Also if your in Lancashire why not come to the Pendle and Pennine meeting on the first Friday of every month?
Lots of friendly people who are only too happy to chat and offer advice.

Hi tiggrr1, I'm in Preston just of the M6 so probably ~15 miles away.  It'd really help me a lot I think if I could take some photos and measurements and would be really interesting to see another one.  I don't think I've ever seen another MkIII let alone sat in one :)

I'm aware of the Pendle and Pennine group, I was intending to go to a few meetings/event when I get it on the road.

Sent you a PM

[THe Maestro]

KevinR wrote:

Can you also post some pictures of the mounting of the body onto the front outriggers.

Heres the pictures of the mountings, I hope this is the location you mean.




I can't get the side pics for the moment too dark and rainy.

[Deleted User]

I dont know if it's just the angle the picture is taken from, but to my eye, the gap between the body and the outriggers looks too smallat the outer ends.

I suspect that the only way you can determine the root cause is to get the car along side another and then start comparing - my money is on a bent chassis, or the outriggers have been replaced incorrectly.
Do the tops of the outriggers run parallel to the floor, or are they sticking up at the ends ?

The side picture of the car needs to be taken from a very low angle so it is possible to see the bottom edge of the sill AND the chassis rails, to see if they are parallel or not.

[THe Maestro]

KevinR wrote:

I dont know if it's just the angle the picture is taken from, but to my eye, the gap between the body and the outriggers looks too smallat the outer ends.

Do the tops of the outriggers run parallel to the floor, or are they sticking up at the ends ?

I just had a quick look and it looks pretty parrallel going off a few reference points.  The gaps between the body and the outriggers closes up a bit near the ends as shown in the photos but thats due to a couple of small welded patches.  There is a ridge that runs around the bottom and that's parallel.

Contrary to what I said before there is a space between the body and the top of the outriggers, they seem to have a rubber ring there around 1 cm thick.  Is that normal?

[Deleted User]

61 wrote:

Contrary to what I said before there is a space between the body and the top of the outriggers, they seem to have a rubber ring there around 1 cm thick.  Is that normal?

Yes, that's correct.

[tiggrr1]

61 wrote:

Hi tiggrr1, I'm in Preston just of the M6 so probably ~15 miles away.  It'd really help me a lot I think if I could take some photos and measurements and would be really interesting to see another one.  I don't think I've ever seen another MkIII let alone sat in one :)

I'm aware of the Pendle and Pennine group, I was intending to go to a few meetings/event when I get it on the road.

Sent you a PM

Don't worry about your GT6 not being on the road, If you have any other means of transport come along to the P&P meeting anyway :)

I've sent you a PM, with luck I can pop up this weekend or Monday 19th in my GT6 and you can snap away till you have what you need then we can go for a little run out........................................................             just so you know what your missing ;)

[beefertoo]

possibly not much help as mines got no bonnet on atm but i'm in blackpool and the bonnet on mine fitted fine. your more than welcome to come round and take measurements/compare notes if you want.

craig

[thealligator]

Bent chassis just behind the front out riggers

Cause all sorts of problems.

This car was still on the road it just had a new bonnet fitted after a front end smash.

Quess what the bonnet did not fit that well.

You never know

[rotoflex]

I'm hoping that it turns out to be something else, but I was also wondering about a bent frame.  Is there evidence of front-end impact/damage?  Like bondoed front center part of the hood, etc.

The nice thing about these cars is that if the frame gets bent, the most primitve body shops can usually muscle them up.

Oop, alligator beat me.  Look on either side of the outrigger (forward & behind) in the engine compartment like in alligators photo.  Even if you don't see a wrinkle, check for evidence of it being straightened back out there and re-painted.

[THe Maestro]

The front has almost definately been in a smash and bits rewelded on in the wrong place.  I've already hacked off, repositioned and rewelded one side of the front rail and the little offshoot at the front of the chassis.  This sorted out some horizontal placement issues.

The right hinge box is welded on noticably lower than the left one by about 1 cm.  Correcting that would help a bit but wouldn't fix it.
The bonnet front doesn't show any significant damage, there is a very small amount of filler (I assume that's bondo?) at the very tip that I put on but it was only needed due to a bit of corrosion.  The tip of the bonnet used to hit the top of the bumper when it was opened and I think that chipped the paint off and lead to some corrosion.

I might be wrong about all of this.  Maybe it was never all rewelded but I can't understand why someone would paint it all up and reassemble it all when it was so far wrong.

Anyway, I've got some good ideas to go off, I'm going to investigate the chassis more especially under the body.  

If it is a bent chassis I guess its a case of removing the body and someone to jig the chassis?  I'm pretty sure its had an MOT in this state anyway so it can't be that bad can it?

[THe Maestro]

236 wrote:

possibly not much help as mines got no bonnet on atm but i'm in blackpool and the bonnet on mine fitted fine. your more than welcome to come round and take measurements/compare notes if you want.

craig

Thanks, I don't have another car at the moment.  Looking for a motorbike atm so might be able to come round at some point shortly :)

[thealligator]

The car the pictured chassis came from had been through loads of mot and it had not been noticed.

It was only when I decided to do a chassis up rebuild that it was found!

[THe Maestro]

thealligator wrote:

The car the pictured chassis came from had been through loads of mot and it had not been noticed.

It was only when I decided to do a chassis up rebuild that it was found!

Just had a look under the car.  I couldn't see the top of the chassis for an obvious kink like in your photo but the underside is a bit weird.  The bottom outside edge of the chassis (just judging by eye) looks very straight, but the inside edge where there is a little metal lip running along the length has bits where the lip is bent down at various points along its length.  I couldn't make out any marked bends in the member as a whole though, it looks pretty straight.  Its weird that the lip goes up and down, maybe its been worked on.  I'm beginning to think it might be a combination of a few things, e.g.

Chassis a bit wrong
hingebox a bit wrong
support tubes squashed slightly

I'll post some photos of the underside of the chassis tommorow.

[rotoflex]

Do you have a copy of the factory shop manual on paper or the Hertage CD?
The beginning of Group 5 has excellent drawings & data for the frame, along with methods of assessing for damage.
The beginning of Group 0 has the same for the body.
If you don't have it, I can scan it for you tomorrow evening.

The ripples sound like souvenirs of a previous frame straightening.

I'd first take advantage of the previous valuable offers to get a side-by-side look to make sure something's not upside down, missing washer or bushings or something, etc.

Then, if using the shop manual data you can't make a good determination, take the shop manual data with you to a body/frame shop *recommended as good by someone you trust* & have them check it.

Straightening the frame on these cars is not a big hairy deal, but finding a good shop is.  I left an icy bridge in the early 80s near Tuscaloosa, a local body shop straightened the frame probably with hammers, a mule, & a chain, & it was fine.  My car was hit while parked around 1997 & I took it to the body shop with "the best frame shop in town" in Mobile, computer this & that, & their work was so abysmal that I'm still dealing with issues from the hood alignment to awful paint, rust in floor pans where they parked it outside with the radio antenna removed, etc.  Remember that a reference is not how many they've done, but how many they've done *well*.

[THe Maestro]

rotoflex wrote:

Do you have a copy of the factory shop manual on paper or the Hertage CD?
The beginning of Group 5 has excellent drawings & data for the frame, along with methods of assessing for damage.
The beginning of Group 0 has the same for the body.
If you don't have it, I can scan it for you tomorrow evening.

The ripples sound like souvenirs of a previous frame straightening.

I'd first take advantage of the previous valuable offers to get a side-by-side look to make sure something's not upside down, missing washer or bushings or something, etc.

Then, if using the shop manual data you can't make a good determination, take the shop manual data with you to a body/frame shop *recommended as good by someone you trust* & have them check it.

Straightening the frame on these cars is not a big hairy deal, but finding a good shop is.  I left an icy bridge in the early 80s near Tuscaloosa, a local body shop straightened the frame probably with hammers, a mule, & a chain, & it was fine.  My car was hit while parked around 1997 & I took it to the body shop with "the best frame shop in town" in Mobile, computer this & that, & their work was so abysmal that I'm still dealing with issues from the hood alignment to awful paint, rust in floor pans where they parked it outside with the radio antenna removed, etc.  Remember that a reference is not how many they've done, but how many they've done *well*.

No I don't have that book, I just have a Haynes manual and a Restoration Guide but I don't think they have that data.  I think it would be very useful if you don't mind scanning it :)

I agree about the chassis frame, it looks likely given the evidence of a front impact and uneven lip on the chassis rails that its been straightened at some point and along with the crap welding (well actually the welding was excellent but the placement was rubbish!), it looks like a bad repair job in the past.  I'm pretty sure the reapair was done ages ago and has been on the road for years with a bad fitting front end.

It will be great if I can take some measurments of another car, then I can assess how much the support tubes and hinge boxe placement is contributing to it which will be much easier to fix.  I'm still thinking if I raise the hinge boxes slightly and extend the bonnet tubes a bit then it should look 90% better.  The gap between the bonnet and bumper will be bigger but when I've held it up in the correct position by hand it doesn't look bad at all and I think preferable to a big V shapped gap between bonnet and doors.

[Scottie55]

Before doing anything you do need to establish the extent of damage or out of spec condition of the chassis otherwise your working blind. The underside of the chassis adjacent to the front outriggers should be straight / flat / level however its best described - front to back. I'd recommend you put the car up on axle stands front and rear then using a long straight edge eg long spirit level - see photo, offer that to the chassis underside rails LH then RH to determine if it is indeed bent and then measure by how much. Armed with that information you are then better placed to define what corrective measures have to be done. If it turns out to be straight, then you'll know to look elsewhere. From your photo of the door - bonnet gap, it is tapered and does suggest a bent chassis. Hope this helps.        

[JensH]

Outriggers - they don't look "original" or "OE" spec. to me?
How is the gap at top bonnet/Dash Top Scuttlel? Seems to be ok?
But door/front wing gap is worse at the top end; i.e. if you raise front end of bonnet, it will hit Dash Top panel??
Could be combination of bend chassis, bad sill job etc.
Need more pics - what have been replaced (sills, wings etc)

[THe Maestro]

429 wrote:

Before doing anything you do need to establish the extent of damage or out of spec condition of the chassis otherwise your working blind. The underside of the chassis adjacent to the front outriggers should be straight / flat / level however its best described - front to back. I'd recommend you put the car up on axle stands front and rear then using a long straight edge eg long spirit level - see photo, offer that to the chassis underside rails LH then RH to determine if it is indeed bent and then measure by how much. Armed with that information you are then better placed to define what corrective measures have to be done. If it turns out to be straight, then you'll know to look elsewhere. From your photo of the door - bonnet gap, it is tapered and does suggest a bent chassis. Hope this helps.        

I'll check that that bit is straight, looks easy enough.  Yes if the chassis is bowed/arched upwards either side of the front outriggers I can imagine that would account for it.  Probably just needs a whack to the rails with a sledgehammer or slide hammer (if I can't hit the top).  Will probably find a body shop though.

I noticed in your picture that the lip running along the inside edge of the chassis rails is also bent downwards and upwards at differnt points along the length.  I think mine is a bit more random looking that yours though.