2007 route

[Raider]

Back to this year's format then Tim, we just have to make it more obvious that people should cut the route if they don't like the pace set.

Regarding halts - the plan is exactly as you say Tim and I am already doing the research ;)

One route is fine just as long as it isn't an "easy" version.

After all, I did the whole thing, never broke a speed limit, and we were the only crew to do both the Stelvio and the Nurburging. I can also say that i never felt as tired as I ahve on the RBRR on the Sunday morning, last time we just had to stop for a while to sleep.

I am concerned tho - if it's not a challenge or it becomes too much like the RBRR, I for one will lose interest very quickly :'(

[James]

Martin - "easy" and "difficult" are relative - I think, like the RBRR - it should be "difficult" for the lowest common denominator - though I don't think this should be based on a 948 so much! - more a 1200 Herald or something?

I mean - doing the RBRR in a big saloon must be easier - and that's the choice of the person entering (within reason)

You can't make it difficult for everyone... is what I am saying...

As for cutting route - yes I think it's up to the crews to plan this - however I think alternatives should be well marked and thought about - it's on foreign soil which makes it a little different. It needs to be organised to a certain degree.

[GTRoger]

Never change a winning team!!

I pretty much liked the character of the 10CR. The routebook as a guideline worked very well. All crews could do whatever they wanted to do, drive the speeds they like, take a break, cut the route etc etc. It gave such a relaxed atmosphere. For some reason you always catch up with the right people.  (Or non at all.... we didn't see a single car from Dijon to Ventimiglia!! )

Don't get too organised.

[Jason]

As Roger says, it's important not to get too organised, a few choices and some "controls" would be good - not sure about getting road books signed etc, I mean if someone fails to get the first signature yet completes the run do we really want to lessen their experience because people will forever say you didn't get a complete set of signatures therefore you didn't complete the run? That would be a shame! There's perhaps more scope for this to happen on the 10CR than the RBRR - I mean they don't close the English / Scottish border for 6 hours do they? That's not to imply they should...or is it?  :P

[Tim Bancroft]

Might be an idea to let crews have the route well in advance, this would then enable them to plan their route and build in alternatives.
Also they could compensate for the fact that they are using a Pi engined car, or a Herald/Spitfire/TR7!
I still do not think it is necessary to go for too many mountain peaks, after all once you have seen one.....
Also do not worry about issuing maps, this makes crews lazy as they do not study the route in advance- and of course get a bit upset when they get lost. Spend more time on the roadbook. Have you thought about reccing the route (I know you are busy though).

As with all these things, the 10CR should be  process of evolution not revolution.

[Charlie]

One of the only things i'd like to see change would be more realistic timings, as we seperated from the pack early on for a petrol stop, we only had the route book as a guide, and so we thought we were behind time most of the thursday night so were bombing it along merily through france and it was only at the breakfast stop at morez that we realised that we were far ahead of the crowd, as we ended up waiting an hour for other teams to arrive.

Also it was a case of thinking we were running out of time on the saturday afternoon, through splugen, but i think that was a case of actual speed through hairpins was a lot less than the route program predicted, and was the reason we ended up skipping stelvio to get some food instead.

Charlie

[James]

What you mention Charlie is a reason why stops need to properly be incorporated - so people meet up - and people catch up. Nobody knew if the stops were mandatory - or if you had to wait - or what.

Road book is essential - no wasting time on silly maps - and a far better chance of people knowing where they are and being able to decide short cuts themselves.

[Raider]

Good points Jason

Does it matter that there are official finishers and if it doesn't why should we have roadbooks signed?

Had pretty much decided to issue the "route" or list of stops or whatever a month in advance but a thought has just occurred to me - wouldn't that mean there could be many different routes chosen by different crews?

Miind you, would that matter either :-/


Decisions, decisions :)

[Tim Bancroft]

Some controls are essential then.

Loads of time yet Martin, for fine tuning.

[James]

Here's a thought...

How about having the 10CR as a kind of "special stage" rally? Everything in between is up to the entrants to plot.

You have to do certain stages - perhaps 4-5 hours of hard driving - for instance the Stelvio, or a pass... or a road...

There only needs to be 4 or 5 stages - and 2 overnight stops.

The route between the stages will be obvious - but there is no actual set route. If the hard drivers want to take in an extra mountain pass - it's up to them - but it's not on the official route. That way there is no way of saying "I did the 10CR properly"

[Raider]

There is only one problem I am having really - and that's trying to take into account completely opposing views.

As an example, the view

Quote:

no wasting time on silly maps

is completely the opposite of these three quotes from the feedback I received

"Superb organisation esp impressive maps!", "Marked maps were great" and "Excellent, well marked maps"

How the heck do we square that one ??)

And that's only one area of the organisation ::)

[James]

Maps come down to logistics - you know what a nightmare they were to organise! Next time there will be even more entrants - probably. I knew they were going to be a pain from the start - the solution needs to be flexible as to how many entrants - you can't plan for a low number. Road book would work with any number of entrants. Scalable solution.

A well written road book will work just as well. People just said "we liked the maps" not "we don't like the roadbooks you never gave us"

[Raider]

I had been planning on not issuing maps as you know but I have these nagging doubts.

In 2003 there were problems because people didn't have the right maps.

In 2007 will they be saying "what happened to the maps then?".

And that's only one element of the event ::)

[James]

You're worrying to much :)

People will get a roadbook a few weeks before - with instructions to mark up a map themselves. It'll be fine!

[GigGleR]

I like the idea of 'Stages' ..... drive to a point, drive the stage, have an overnight or rest stop, drive to the next stage.

Sounds fun, less of the push, push, push, all the time that we have with the timings.

Maybe it's just my two teams but we prefered the idea of a steady drive through europe rather than the 'Aw hell we've got to get from italy to belgium etc. in the next 4 hours' that seemed to be the theme of our personal trip  :-/

It did have plenty of fun moments to, an experience  ;D

[Charlie]

Quote:

In 2007 will they be saying "what happened to the maps then?"

Well to be fair with gps you don't look at the maps much, they were more of a backup, so personally i don't think it would be a problem to lose the maps if we did have proper meeting points, but i know many others will probably not share the same view, its the old new versus old technology argument.

Charlie

[James]

It's not so much a "which is better - maps or road book?" - it's down to logistics and we just cannot do maps again!

Besides - a road book AND a map that you have marked up yourself is much better in my opinion anyway. For a start it feels more rally and involving than just following the yellow brick road...

The more I think about it - the more I like the idea of the stages - essentially it would be an identical route - just it's not all marked out! You may think it contradicts what I was saying earlier about crews having alternative routes marked out properly - but if it's more involving then they can work it out for themselves.

[Tim Bancroft]

Got to agree with James, spent days on the maps- a real pain. Also getting them all to the Plough was a 'mare. Poor old car was on suspension stops from Staines to Crews Hill- if I had taken the GT6-quite simply no maps as would not have been able to get them there.
I liked the idea of crews not knowing about the route before hand, but in practice it did not work.

No need to mark maps, recommend maps/atlases and let people mark their own- its the only way!

[Jason]

It's not a competion so a secret route doesn't really do it for me - if at least the stage end points were known well in advance I think that would be good. Cars and crews could be guided by suggested routes but ultimately left to their own devices thus not over organising people too much. Those with GPS could pre-plot their waypoints, those iwth maps could study and mark up etc. This would greatly help in plot and bash when looking to cut the route or make up time, especially if hours behind due to mechanical or navigational mishap

[James]

Im sure it wasn't me that suggested the idea in the first place - but the stage idea really works for me!

Everyone does their own thing in a reasonably controlled way - if stops are mandatory and not just "well nobody is here lets go" - people will group up and take on the stages in small groups.

As long as everyone meets up at least once or twice a day - you've already got far more of a social aspect than the last one. Having said that - we had a great time on the last one - and only saw 3 different cars between Calais and Belgium on Sunday night!

[Deleted User]

Gotta say i like this idea of getting a road book a few weeks before the event and then getting the maps and marking up ourselves,there was an exciting element to not knowing where you were going last time but it did hinder you when you wanted to cut the route and catch up

[Deleted User]

Right here are my views after reading the thread,based on my personal experience of long distance rallying (London Lisbon,and two CRA World cup rallys)
I will use the 2001 WCR (London Sahara London around 8,000miles in 18 days) as an example,we were NOT issued marked maps,but we did have a road book,also GPS was allowed which a few crews had(but wasnt much use trying to follow goat tracks over the Atlas mountains!)
We were told which maps to buy, marked them up ourselves a week before the event once the road book had been sent out (It took Charlotte two days! thats why I allways drive!) the road book (well it was two) was thick, very thick and a LOT of recce work had been done by crews months before us (in fact one of the hire cars used to recce caught fire! This was mentioned in the road book and you could reset your intermeadiate as you passed the blackend patch on the roadside!)
The first leg was from Brooklands to an overnight in the middle of France which was the MTC , the road book for that section was a bout half a page,the road book for the next mornings section was about 20 pages  and only 50 miles  as it took us round several "tests" in the French countryside which had to be very detailed,this set the tone all the way to the desert and back via 50 odd test sections,but we all managed to meet at least once in the day at  time controls, as you had an earlist arival time and a departure time ,if you had a breakdown etc it was down to you to cut and catch up.
I know the 10CR is not this tpye of event,but it seems it needs a road book copied (not in as much detail) from this tpye of event with "notional" stops,if these stops are positioned in places that allow crews to cut to a quicker route to get  them to the next "stop" and allow them some rest and a catch up gossip with other crews it would allow flexibilty,you could have the "gung ho" "dont stop wont stop I  want to do evey mountain pass I can see" crews and the "lard ho" crews "I a need to stop and eat at every kebab shop and take in the country side crew" meeting at some stage within 24 hrs of setting off
They VERY tough bit of this will be putting the road book together without being able to recce the route
As for myself on the 2007 event I intend to enter two cars again so we are always  "buddied" up , I intend to be on the Ferry at 9.30am on the start day,sitting in a french cafe by 2.30pm getting ready to drive untill the evening where I shall stuff my face and have a kip before driving all through the night! again I will stop around 7.00am have a full fry up of black pudding on my roadside camp stove before sleeping and dreaming of the italian cafe I am going to stop at for my lunch!...guess which crew tpye I will be!
I will be the chilled out "Lard ho" tpye not getting stressed about "correct route" bollocks but enjoying the drive and making sure I plan what I want to do before the event (I spent too much time getting the cars ready last year I didnt really pay attention to the route untill we got 24 hr  deep into it !)
I will make sure I do the bits I want,and aim to hook up with other crews at some pre arranged "stop points" which is where a road book would come in handy to let all crews know where others might be at a certain time..right I will shut up now

[jonathan binnington]

for a stage "run" with overnight stops I would do the 10cr in the supersix again

j

[Raider]

Ok - for me this is all about enjoying the event and the opportunity.

I do not "enjoy" sleeping in a nice hotel every night - good luck to those who do :)

The trick will be allowing different views to happen on the same event.

There is something magical in my opinion about driving overnight in some far off land - if this is possible on 10CR2007 I'll be there ;D

[v8dean]

after being "off forum" for a few months, i've read the threads and the only conclusion i have, is that the route stays just as Martin dictates. Why? simplicity!And the only question IMHO is "to map or not to map" .

perhaps we should inform/scrutinise the entrants, to avoid dissapointments along the way. We cant manageably cope with more entrants than last year.

I'm not picking on anyone that has complained about the route or the run, i know because i was one of the early 'moaners'.
But now we all realize that that you only know it after you've done it once.

Rock on Martin, Roll on 2007.

Dean.