2007 route

[James]

[quote by=v8dean link=Blah.pl?b=10CR,m=1131902691,s=74 date=1137196103]perhaps we should inform/scrutinise the entrants, to avoid dissapointments along the way.[/quote]

No event should ever be so closed as to entrants have to be warned what it's going to be like. The event should cater for the largest number possible in my opinion. Personally I'd rather run an event that made 100 people happy than just meeting the demands of 10. It's not going to turn in to a tour, it's not going to turn in to a holiday - be sure of that.

[quote by=v8dean link=Blah.pl?b=10CR,m=1131902691,s=74 date=1137196103]We cant manageably cope with more entrants than last year.[/quote]

Who's "we"? We (CT) fully intend on progressing this event and pushing it forward. I think it's a fantastic idea - as with every event it's going to evolve - hopefully in to something even better next time! Am already looking forward to it - and this year's "blue ribbon" event is still over 9 months away!

[Chriss]

Sorry I have not been paying attention to this debate, but my company’s Internet Nazi attitude has meant that I have not picked up on it until now.  I am not sure that the debate that is being conducted here is representative of how many entrants felt at the end of the event. Some of the hard core entrants who took part may not agree with some of the opinions expressed, as they may have a surprisingly different attitude and that needs to be sought.

Over the last few years CT has expanded its events into a very interesting portfolio.  Not all of which suit every member, but there is something for every one, which makes CT a very inclusive club.  The 10CR needs to find its place in this portfolio.  It is probably the most complex event in the portfolio and is one that will take a while to perfect and I am sure all enthusiasts will be patient and contribute to it.

I am afraid not much was seen of the red TR7 during the event as we gave the schedule some serious effort, but I got a bit confused as to what the event was mostly about.  CT events have a key social element about them, although hard driving is another element, but in the 10CR05 during the day hard driving excluded sociability. Only at the overnight stops was the balance clear, as the driving objectives were so severe.

We got to the lunch stop on Friday just about on time.  I think only GT Roger was ahead of us on the road and he did not wait as he had deadlines to meet.  We waited an hour and a half, wondering where every one was, before 2 saloons turned up with knackered crews and after they had finished lunch, we continued with them to Turin to be sociable, rather that press on to maintain the timetable.   What we did not realise was that not many entrants attempted the mountain section.

On Saturday to achieve the rest of the timetable we had to be clear of the Lesa lunch by 12:15, having only spoken with a surprised Alberto, and off for the Stelvio.  I think only 3 cars did the Stelvio and then it was on for the most gruelling night of driving I think I have undertaken before 2 laps round the Nurburgring by 08:30 the next day.  I understand that many entrants went straight to Germany after lunch.

No one completed the whole route and from what I heard after the event, if the 10CR is such a hard core event next time, then it won’t get too many entrants in 2007. A balance needs to be found to enthuse a sensible number of members.

This is not to knock the 10CR05, because I really enjoyed it and found it a real challenge that was everything Martin said it would be so there should have been no surprises, but to help develop it for CT members for the future and help build it into an event that other classic car clubs only dream of.

My suggestions include:

Different in character to the RBRR

Seeks to have a decent number of entrants say c.50+

Achievable by all Triumphs, not just TR7V8s

Timed around September / Early October

General route published 3 months in advance, noting mountain heights to allow time for preparation

Entrants must take full responsibility for their preparation and organisation
(e.g. entrants should know how their cars behave at altitude)

Realistic driving objectives that most of the field can complete

No route books, entrants must plan their own routes between defined points

No checkpoints  / marshals

Historic counties format to prove you have done the route

Organised overnight stops, except first night

Need not cover 10 countries, just 2000 to 4000 miles of interesting motoring in 4 – 6 days

Need not be called 10 Countries Run, may include Iberia, Scandinavia, Balkans and sensible eastern European countries

Check out security in advance (e.g. Autobahn hit squads and Polish bandits)

Allows some time to pause at interesting places, preferably for a meal break

Adds specific interests according to the route (e.g. lunch at Lesa)

Does not include track sessions (covered by other CT events)

Allows some debate before event finalised..... :)

If that means that the needs of hard core drivers are not catered for then perhaps we can consider and additional event or a whole new championship   ;D

Chris

[GigGleR]

Sounds good to me  ;D I prefer the idea of everyone meeting at specfic points but having no planned routes. This means that if you actually WANT to drive like a madman you can and do many more villages/farm tracks/countries/fields  but those of us that were looking to actually enjoy it can do  ;D

[GTRoger]

Quote:

I think only GT Roger was ahead of us on the road and he did not wait as he had deadlines to meet.

No deadlines to meet, only driving our own pace. Which wasn't slow, though we weren't racing.  On these events you have to drive your own speed, suitable for the car your in. Otherwise you get bored or stressed up. 

[Beans]

[quote by=Raider link=Blah.pl?b=10CR,m=1131902691,s=73 date=1137191011]There is something magical in my opinion about driving overnight in some far off land - if this is possible on 10CR2007 I'll be there ;D[/quote]

I totaly agree on that one, there are enough "posh" so called classic car rallye's which are more of a  grand tour along grand (and usually expensive) hotels.
The principle of the 10CR shouldn't change to much, only skip the Long-German-Autobahn-Stretch-At-Night bit next time and change it for some nice twisting Bundesstraßen.

[Jason]

Ahh but you see those long boring stretches at night are often neccessary to cover  the ground - and whilst boring I would rather do them at night and enjoy the scenery in the day time :-)

[Charlie]

Quote:

The principle of the 10CR shouldn't change to much, only skip the Long-German-Autobahn-Stretch-At-Night bit next time and change it for some nice twisting Bundesstraßen.

Well in that case skip the splugenpass, which i thought was a twisty bit too far, and one that cooked the brakes and the clutch, and just do the shorter road, which should give a couple of hours back to do some more intereseting roads then the autobahn's. just a suggestion.

Charlie

[Jason]

BUT - the Splugenpass has such a cool name!

[Deleted User]

I've even met some one who used to holiday in Splugen as a kid

But if we got the''sugested'' route a few weeks before, we could then decide for ouselves whether to do the hardcore mountain bit or a softer option to the next meeting point

Raider did say right from the start that we didn't have to do any of the route as it was only a sugested route ,the only places he expected to see us was at the evening halts.I think people just assumed that as something was marked on the map they had to do it.

[Charlie]

it may well have a cool name, but we almost didn't make it to the bottom, and yes in hindsight we should of probably not gone down it, but we were following most of the route, and we weren't seriously behind time at that point, though we were according to the route guide after we'd finished.

Yes it would be nice to have route maps issued before hand, or for us to get maps before the event, and then issue all the proposed stops, means that we can all get an idea of the route, program gps etc. Also i can see the forum being a hotbed of disucssion with various groups deciding on the different routes they will be taking.

It's probably going to be a hard job deciding on the stops that should be taken, but we've got a year and a half in which to do that, so maybe a new thread titled "2007 stops" be started with various suggestions?

Charlie

[JohnD]

" entrants should know how their cars behave at altitude"

This was the one thing that nearly stopped us (Jon & John in the SuperSix - rain, what rain?), and was a complete surprise.  Although the problems of Pi at altitude are known, other Pi cars denied any handicap. Difficult to know beforehand if yours will be affected, as it only occurs significantly at altitudes higher than any UK road!
Don't want to have nappies or Kleenex included with the maps, but perhaps a specific warning? 
John

[v8dean]

[quote by=jcarruthers link=Blah.pl?b=10CR,m=1131902691,s=75 date=1137198005]
No event should ever be so closed as to entrants have to be warned what it's going to be like...............
The event should cater for the largest number possible in my opinion. Personally I'd rather run an event that made 100 people happy .......
Who's "we"? We (CT) fully intend on progressing this event and pushing it forward. [/quote]

After the 10CR2003 , it was generally agreed that in future, teams should be warned/better briefed to avoid suprises..............

We had almost 100 people! Finding stops suitable without incuring unnecessary costs isn't easy.

"We"? I may not be a paid up member of CT, but i do consider myself one of the team when it comes to aiding the organization of the 10CR. You may not see me at UK events but on the 10CR, i'm their to help out when and where i can.

Dean.

[quote by=JohnD link=Blah.pl?b=10CR,m=1131902691,s=85 date=1137974549]"
Don't want to have nappies or Kleenex included with the maps, but perhaps a specific warning? 
John[/quote]

[quote by=Charlie link=Blah.pl?b=10CR,m=1131902691,s=84 date=1137966297]Splugenpass......it may well have a cool name, but we almost didn't make it to the bottom, and yes in hindsight we should of probably not gone down it.......
Charlie[/quote]

[Charlie]

Ok in my post the "we" reffered solely to my co-driver and myself, and was not a general "we" for all the teams. Problems with the English language really.

Charlie

[Jason]

PI and altitude is a known problem but how the hell are you supposed to know exactly how your car will behave at such extremes - you're never going to encounter them in the UK so even if you know your car doesn't work well what can you do about it and how do you test it?

As for the route - to know or not know up front seems to bethe question. Personally I'd like to know in advance what the suggested routes are and I think a challenging route plus an alternative "make time" route would be great. However, spare a thought for the people who have to mark up the maps - if you want your route early that means maps have to be bought earlier and the route finalised earlier and then maps physically marked up earlier - these guys do it for love so is it reasonable to make such demands on them? Maybe we need a way of publishing the route and the maps to buy so the super keen can get their route as early as possible? Some sort of map on the interweb that you could look at and mark up your own would be good. At the end of the day it's not really about the navigation, that's just a means to the end of great driving roads in spectacular country with like minded idiots, err I mean enthusiasts!

[Jason]

[quote by=v8dean link=Blah.pl?b=10CR,m=1131902691,s=86 date=1137978019]
I may not be a paid up member of CT[/quote]
What  :o C'mon, pay your dues Dean - or are you black balled (you can get cream for that)

[Raider]

Jason - you make some good points with regard to marking up maps etc.

Good luck to the organising committee for 2007 is all I can say ;)

Some points for them to consider tho

In 2003 the route in a guideline form was issued in advance and maps bought in advance by some and collected at the Plough by others. Then it was down to each individual team to plot their own route.

We then found that some of the maps bought were not really good enough and hence, for ecxample, alot of us couldn't find the route out of Bar - sur - Arbe. Thanks to Tim Hunt who had a knowledge of the route and better scale maps we managed it in the end.

To save this hassle I decided in 2005 to supply marked maps of as good a scale as we could manage and include the costs in the entry fee (there was no entry fee in 2003 - those were the days ::)) 

In addition, if I remember correctly I sent out the Roadbook two weeks in advance with  the route info in the same format as 2003 so it would have been possible to do some planning if crews wished.

Issuing the route earlier will mean it has to be finalised earlier which is another constraint on the volunteer organising team.

A roadbook like the RBRR could be considered but that would mean recceing the route and having it printed up - more costs to be factored in to the entry fee, more time constraints on the organisers and there really is a defined route.

I don't think physically amrking up maps for crews is on again though as the event grows - it was a mamoth task this time!

Can't wait for 10Cr2007 tho - this time as an entrant only :)

[Burnerboy]

Can Andy and I recce the route for 2007 please? I think we need about a week but we will do it for beer and petrol money only ;)

[Raider]

If only I could get the time off for good behaviour I would join you ;D

[don cook1]

I remember most of the 2003 10CR but the 2005 event was packed with so many mountain passes that I'm blowed if I can remember them...I know I was talking to Dave Pearson and his driveshaftless Vitesse at about 9000' but where was it?? The drive during the evening to Ventimiglia behind Tim Hunt's TR4 was great but I've no idea where we were, I felt a bit put out that we did that part of the route, as marked up, while many others did the motorway via Turin; we ended up losing our beds for the night (thanks for the pint though Dean). I'll have to get Steve my co-driver round for some beers and retrace the maps and try to re-live it. I'm not being critical of anyone here but I think it was too much for me and that I should have heeded Raider's word at the Plough.

Keep the 10CR as it is but less strenuous. I think, though, I'd go for maximum daylight: June/July

Chris' notion of a series of routes all over Europe , and James (if it was his) idea of a British 'coming from all points to a central gathering' sounds quite good;bit like the Monte Carlo Rally. Leave the Plough and meet you in...say, Berlin, Prague, Vienna...Moscow etc etc. Some might head for Newcastle and a ferry to Norway, others to the south coast ports to Spain, Brittany, Calais; maybe even Harwich. It could be called the "Every Single European Country Run". A nice gentle cruise back (the social bit) would be good!

[James]

The problem with making a route that is so demanding - and drawing it out on a map - is that people like to follow routes. Doesn't matter if you tell them to cut - they're doing the 10CR - and alll they know the 10CR is, is this route they have in front of them. They think "in order to complete the 10CR I need to do everything" - there were no objectives this time - so people couldn't concentrate on those - all they had was a route.

Don - not sure that was my idea - news to me.

I think the idea of 3 or 4 planned stages - as in a mountain pass - and then perhaps 3 or 4 points to meet up - at a point of interest (car museum) - is the way to go.

Entrants then plot the route themselves between the stages and POI's and do whatever they want inbetween. They plot _before_ leaving - like a good month.

[Beans]

[quote by=Chriss link=Blah.pl?b=10CR,m=1131902691,s=76 date=1137939774]...I think only GT Roger was ahead of us on the road and he did not wait as he had deadlines to meet....
No one completed the whole route ...[/quote]

Well we certainly had a deadline to meet well in fact two;
firts be in time in Ventimiglia to have a few social beers,  ;D
second drive the complete route, wel at least between Steenvoorde, Ventimiglia and Lichtervelde.

As for my remark on the long nightly Autbahn stretch, matbe don't go south to much, don't leave the Alps. It costs hours to drive to the Med and back again. You can spend those hours better on some extra alpine passes and nice country roads going North

[Charlie]

Quote:

It costs hours to drive to the Med and back again.

Yes but how are we going to drive roundt he Monaco grand prix? I did love blasting through that tunnel, and if it wasn't for the fact that i didn't know whether we'd have car lights i would of spent a bit more time in monaco.

It all comes down to the question about what the club wants the bi-annual European run to be, it could be 10 countries, or do it in a day less, and head to the alps, bit of italy, nurburgring, then back into Belgium or something.

I'm at the moment in still doing 10 countries, with the meeting points given out ahead of the run, and people plan and mark up their own routes. But if some brave fool or fools, Paul & Andy fancy going through and recceing the route for the 2007 route even better.

Although Paul if you do want some company on your recce, I'll see if chris and myself get the time of work.

Charlie

[Tim Bancroft]

You may have read that Ellis is taking over for the 2007 10CR, please let him get his feet under the table and get himself prepared for the onslaught of work.

I know that he will be contacting one or two people who have done a 10CR with the idea to form a samll team of organisers and therefore spread the load.

I am sure that you all wish him well with this onerous task. Gotta be said though that the comments that have been made all point to the fact that people have enjoyed the previous two 10CR events and that must be very pleasing for Martin.

[jonathan binnington]

I would say, and I am sure co-pilot John would agree that the best, no THE BEST parts were the mountains and if we were to do the 10 CR again, we would trade all the german motorways and luxembourge/nederlands/belgique autoroutes for MORE MOUNTAINS!

breathless PI or no

j

[Beans]

[quote by=jonathan_binnington link=Blah.pl?b=10CR,m=1131902691,s=98 date=1138053235]THE BEST parts were the mountains and if we were to do the 10 CR again, we would trade all the german motorways and luxembourge/nederlands/belgique autoroutes for MORE MOUNTAINS![/quote]

Well you didn't do any dutch motorways, in fact we didn't do either  :P
Otherwise I totaly agree with you.
Oh and for my part, ditch the Monaco GP circuit in favour of an extra lap on the Nordschleife. That at least is a real circuit ....  ;D

And as for Raider and also V8Dean, you did a great job on the 2005 10CR.